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Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.
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Surendra S
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Joined: 25 Sep 2009
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:33 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

Many departments in this country have no qualified staff in government to check structural drawings and stability. It is usually referred to the civil engineering department of local university for approval, if required. I am from BAngalore and here in karnataka, building plans are usally sanctioned based on architectural drawings only. No structural drawings are submitted for approval. 

I request all to influence the government(both central and states) to see that an act is formulated that structural drawings are also to be submitted along with architectural drawings for approval of project.

It is being presently followed in Andra Pradesh.






On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 4:48 PM, mitalsanghvi <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           “One of our SEFIN member from Gujarat, claimed that Gujarat has the best building plan checks in India.”

Dear sefians,

I belong to kachchh Gujarat……… Earthquake prone area………

I would like to brief about how government system works over here in plans and structural checking…

We have 4 authorities each for bhuj, rapar, anjar and bhachau after 2001 earthquake which regulates the construction practices in towns…… Called as Area Development Authority….. These are governing only towns area………
None of the authority have qualified staff for checking structural drawings, calculations etc……. They only have staff for checking architectural issues……..

There are other towns and rural areas in kachchh where there is none to ask what anyone is building in terms of architectural and structural ………….

This is what actual condition is……….



From: VPandya [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)]
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 7:09 PM
To: announcement@sefindia.org (announcement@sefindia.org)
Subject: [SEFI] Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.




Dear SEFIN'S,

Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmedabad, killing 5 people and injuring many.
One of our SEFIN member from Gujarat, claimed that Gujarat has the best building plan checks in India. Human error is possible in the best building inspection department. But this collapse seen on TV looks like a house of playing cards failed.
I can not say more without having a professional engineers report but this kind
of collapse is a WAKE-UP CALL for us who are in this profession of Building Design
and Structural Engineering. Three months back we had similar story in Delhi where 80 people died. How many more? How to stop this?

Regards.

Vasudeo Pandya
Structural Engineer
     





     



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Sanjay Jayaswal
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Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:30 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

In Delhi NCR, only Ghaziabad Development Authority(GDA) ask for submission of structural drawings and calculations duly vetted by any of IIT. but it is well known here that these drawings are not construction drawings. these are submitted for approval purpose only simply as formalty. actual construction drawings are totaly different from the drawings which were vetted by IITs.

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 10:01 AM, Surendra S <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
[quote]  Many departments in this country have no qualified staff in government to check structural drawings and stability. It is usually referred to the civil engineering department of local university for approval, if required. I am from BAngalore and here in karnataka, building plans are usally sanctioned based on architectural drawings only. No structural drawings are submitted for approval. 

I request all to influence the government(both central and states) to see that an act is formulated that structural drawings are also to be submitted along with architectural drawings for approval of project.

It is being presently followed in Andra Pradesh.






On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 4:48 PM, mitalsanghvi forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:

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vikram.jeet
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:18 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

A 230mm width generally accomodate 3 nos of 25mm bars. The clear sapcing between
bars comes to = [230-2*25(side face)-3*25]/2= 52.5mm.(considering side -cover to stirrups
bar as 15mm)

How 1mm to 3mm possible , could be 10mm to 30mm ,if more nos provided due to ignorance

vikramjeet


Dear Sir,
Regarding 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmedabad, in this SEFian all people are worry for Quality Construction. In Surat City, I have seen Faulty Design, Even designer has 25 year experience, structural designer are providing ductile detailing as per Indian Standard 13920 But, what about ductile concrete, there is no confinement, means no confine concrete, designer has given 25mm dia. bar but, spacing between these bar is 1mm to 3 mm only
, so how aggregate-concrete will pass, and same designer signature in Design PROOF CHECK, how is it possible same designer checking their design.? And still people are providing floating column also. Structural Engineering not taking care for their design, and we are blaming contractor regarding quality. Because, in INDIA GOD will save our lives for Earthquake tremor.
-- ­­

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Vinay Kumar
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Joined: 10 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:53 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

We must take up such issues in all the forums.
I intend to do that with BIS and the local authorities when I get a chance.
Vinay Kumar

From: Sanjay Jayaswal [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: 31 January 2011 12:27
To: announcement@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.



In Delhi NCR, only Ghaziabad Development Authority(GDA) ask for submission of structural drawings and calculations duly vetted by any of IIT. but it is well known here that these drawings are not construction drawings. these are submitted for approval purpose only simply as formalty. actual construction drawings are totaly different from the drawings which were vetted by IITs.

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 10:01 AM, Surendra S forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
Quote:
Many departments in this country have no qualified staff in government to check structural drawings and stability. It is usually referred to the civil engineering department of local university for approval, if required. I am from BAngalore and here in karnataka, building plans are usally sanctioned based on architectural drawings only. No structural drawings are submitted for approval.

I request all to influence the government(both central and states) to see that an act is formulated that structural drawings are also to be submitted along with architectural drawings for approval of project.

It is being presently followed in Andra Pradesh.






On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 4:48 PM, mitalsanghvi forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:

--auto removed--  





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ALPESH PATEL
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Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 8:57 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

I agree with you.
We should take up this issue to all Structural Forum.
But one thing i want to tell you we  always talked about when
Incident happened.
So consistantaly we should be in touch with each other
So that one can learnt so many thing from each other.
Regards



ALPESH PATEL
B.E.Civil.MIE(I),FIV
Chartered Engineer(I)
Mob : 9426591873, 9586740048
e-mail : alpesh@patelassociates.co.in  


From: Vinay Kumar [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: 31 January 2011 14:05
To: announcement@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.



We must take up such issues in all the forums.
I intend to do that with BIS and the local authorities when I get a chance.
Vinay Kumar

From: Sanjay Jayaswal [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: 31 January 2011 12:27
To: announcement@sefindia.org (announcement@sefindia.org)
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.



In Delhi NCR, only Ghaziabad Development Authority(GDA) ask for submission of structural drawings and calculations duly vetted by any of IIT. but it is well known here that these drawings are not construction drawings. these are submitted for approval purpose only simply as formalty. actual construction drawings are totaly different from the drawings which were vetted by IITs.

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 10:01 AM, Surendra S forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))> wrote:    
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:16 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

Well,everybody is responsible either contractor or consultant,I believe that there should be recorded images of all structural activities especially critical ones.Structural activities should jointly signed by contracting supervisor,engineer and consulting engineer whether it is mix or reinforcement.
Regards
Javid

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 9:08 AM, ALPESH PATEL <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           I agree with you.
We should take up this issue to all Structural Forum.
But one thing i want to tell you we  always talked about when
Incident happened.
So consistantaly we should be in touch with each other
So that one can learnt so many thing from each other.
Regards



ALPESH PATEL
B.E.Civil.MIE(I),FIV
Chartered Engineer(I)
Mob : 9426591873, 9586740048
e-mail : alpesh@patelassociates.co.in (alpesh@patelassociates.co.in)


From: Vinay Kumar [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)]
Sent: 31 January 2011 14:05
To: announcement@sefindia.org (announcement@sefindia.org)
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.



We must take up such issues in all the forums.
I intend to do that with BIS and the local authorities when I get a chance.
Vinay Kumar

From: Sanjay Jayaswal [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)]
Sent: 31 January 2011 12:27
To: announcement@sefindia.org (announcement@sefindia.org) (announcement@sefindia.org (announcement@sefindia.org))
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.



In Delhi NCR, only Ghaziabad Development Authority(GDA) ask for submission of structural drawings and calculations duly vetted by any of IIT. but it is well known here that these drawings are not construction drawings. these are submitted for approval purpose only simply as formalty. actual construction drawings are totaly different from the drawings which were vetted by IITs.

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 10:01 AM, Surendra S forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))))> wrote:
--auto removed--
     



     



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Sanjay Jayaswal
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Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:37 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

who is going to pay? even designers are ready to 50paise per square foot
We are not in a position to increase our rate because any one can call himself as a structural consultant- from Diploma holder to Ph.D., from a person who is having a firm to some one doing part time jobs. Several Professors, Govt. employees, and other also do consultancy. Moreover some of the part time persons even sit in the Architect’s office and finish the job. For them a couple of thousand rupees are more than sufficient. Only if someone starts a consulting firm, they will know the difficulty of paying to the fellow engineer. We now have the problem of Service tax. Many clients feel that it has to be paid by the consultants!! 

Many clients pay about Re.1.00 to Rs. 1.50 per sq.ft., and ask for Earthquake analysis and detailing, calculation report and 10 copies of the drawing (which should be made using AUTOCAD), and frequent site visit!! (Architects pay very less and ask for lump sum rate!) Several of them do not pay the last bill. They won’t pay any advance and will pay 20-25% when you submit the foundation drawing (that is when you have completed all your work).


On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Vishal_Desai <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
  Dear all, being a structural engineer I believe it is the responsibility of the designer to supervise if his designs are being executed according to the drawings and construction quality is maintained. Blaming the contractors is not a solution. Rather than taking 10 different jobs and not supervising any it is more practical to take fees for supervision and appoint someone who will keep quality check. This system will prove beneficial to even the contractors who sometimes are not strong technically.Regards,Vishal Desai.
- from VodafoneFrom: "PRADIPTA MOHAPATRA"
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 15:50:18 +0530
To:
ReplyTo: announcement@sefindia.org (announcement@sefindia.org)
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.

The collapse during construction indicates 01. Design failure due to foundation on soil 02.The failure of the scaffolding perpetuating the collapse. 03. An accident of sort causing the failure of one or more columns at the Ground level. All these raises a question can Govt.control Private Construction ,is a Structural Engineer given free hands to oversee all the works, or the construction is in the hands of General people who donot take Enginnering seriously! This is perehaps a debate which needs to be addressed. P.Mohapatra. Structural Engineer BUILDSOL. --auto removed--









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gautam chattopadhyay
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Joined: 17 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:43 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

people like to economise on structural design i.e, saving money by not going to the structure designers. A fee of 1.5 to 2% towards a structure designer looks very big to the building owners and builders but when a building collapse like Ahmedabad, Delhi etc, 100% is lost. A lesson these people should learn. In 5000 BC king Hamuraby of Egypt wrote in law: if a building collapse constructor would be hanged. The clause is said to be earliest code of practice in civil engineering. It seems we should re-enct Hamuraby's code after 7000 years. At Hamuraby's time buildings used to collapse due to ignorance while now those are collapsing due to negligance.

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Sanjay Jayaswal <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
  In Delhi NCR, only Ghaziabad Development Authority(GDA) ask for submission of structural drawings and calculations duly vetted by any of IIT. but it is well known here that these drawings are not construction drawings. these are submitted for approval purpose only simply as formalty. actual construction drawings are totaly different from the drawings which were vetted by IITs.

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 10:01 AM, Surendra S forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
Quote:
Many departments in this country have no qualified staff in government to check structural drawings and stability. It is usually referred to the civil engineering department of local university for approval, if required. I am from BAngalore and here in karnataka, building plans are usally sanctioned based on architectural drawings only. No structural drawings are submitted for approval. 

I request all to influence the government(both central and states) to see that an act is formulated that structural drawings are also to be submitted along with architectural drawings for approval of project.

It is being presently followed in Andra Pradesh.







On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 4:48 PM, mitalsanghvi forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))> wrote:

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vivek Kulshrestha
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Joined: 13 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:45 pm    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

That is true,& I agree the bad business condition of Indian market,why not we all leave the structural design business.Many of designer have left the business,& now has started their own construction business,in which they do not need any architect,simply made the plan as per their wish ,& told the steel directly to the contractor & execute the building.And even many inteligent govt. engineers,who has lots of black money has converted them self into the builder or the part time builder.
Finally the structural designer is the "biggest donkey",who has all the resposibility & that too without the money
Vivek Kulshrestha


--- On Mon, 31/1/11, Sanjay Jayaswal <forum@sefindia.org> wrote:

[quote]
From: Sanjay Jayaswal <forum@sefindia.org>
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.
To: announcement@sefindia.org
Date: Monday, 31 January, 2011, 6:08 PM

who is going to pay? even designers are ready to 50paise per square foot
We are not in a position to increase our rate because any one can call himself as a structural consultant- from Diploma holder to Ph.D., from a person who is having a firm to some one doing part time jobs. Several Professors, Govt. employees, and other also do consultancy. Moreover some of the part time persons even sit in the Architect’s office and finish the job. For them a couple of thousand rupees are more than sufficient. Only if someone starts a consulting firm, they will know the difficulty of paying to the fellow engineer. We now have the problem of Service tax. Many clients feel that it has to be paid by the consultants!!

Many clients pay about Re.1.00 to Rs. 1.50 per sq.ft., and ask for Earthquake analysis and detailing, calculation report and 10 copies of the drawing (which should be made using AUTOCAD), and frequent site visit!! (Architects pay very less and ask for lump sum rate!) Several of them do not pay the last bill. They won’t pay any advance and will pay 20-25% when you submit the foundation drawing (that is when you have completed all your work).


On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Vishal_Desai forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
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bharatthej
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Joined: 06 Jan 2011
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:19 pm    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

Very well said mr.sanjay.i am opening a startup in structural
consultancy and i am severly facing this difficulty.local muncipal
licensed str.engineers quote too less.now for marketing im forced to
offer architectural service too.

On 1/31/11, Sanjay Jayaswal <forum@sefindia.org> wrote:
Quote:
who is going to pay? even designers are ready to 50paise per square foot
We are not in a position to increase our rate because any one can call
himself as a structural consultant- from Diploma holder to Ph.D., from a
person who is having a firm to some one doing part time jobs. Several
Professors, Govt. employees, and other also do consultancy. Moreover some of
the part time persons even sit in the Architect’s office and finish the job.
For them a couple of thousand rupees are more than sufficient. Only if
someone starts a consulting firm, they will know the difficulty of paying to
the fellow engineer. We now have the problem of Service tax. Many clients
feel that it has to be paid by the consultants!!

Many clients pay about Re.1.00 to Rs. 1.50 per sq.ft., and ask for
Earthquake analysis and detailing, calculation report and 10 copies of the
drawing (which should be made using AUTOCAD), and frequent site visit!!
(Architects pay very less and ask for lump sum rate!) Several of them do not
pay the last bill. They won’t pay any advance and will pay 20-25% when you
submit the foundation drawing (that is when you have completed all your
work).


On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Vishal_Desai <forum@sefindia.org
(forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:

Quote:
Dear all, being a structural engineer I believe it is the responsibility
of the designer to supervise if his designs are being executed according
to the drawings and construction quality is maintained. Blaming the
contractors is not a solution. Rather than taking 10 different jobs and
not supervising any it is more practical to take fees for supervision and
appoint someone who will keep quality check. This system will prove
beneficial to even the contractors who sometimes are not strong
technically.Regards,Vishal Desai.
- from VodafoneFrom: "PRADIPTA MOHAPATRA"
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 15:50:18 +0530
To:
ReplyTo: announcement@sefindia.org (announcement@sefindia.org)
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in
Ahmeda.

The collapse during construction indicates 01. Design failure due to
foundation on soil 02.The failure of the scaffolding perpetuating the
collapse. 03. An accident of sort causing the failure of one or more
columns at the Ground level. All these raises a question can Govt.control
Private Construction ,is a Structural Engineer given free hands to oversee
all the works, or the construction is in the hands of General people who
donot take Enginnering seriously! This is perehaps a debate which needs to
be addressed. P.Mohapatra. Structural Engineer BUILDSOL. --auto
removed--








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