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Cut outs in beams for services
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Dr. N. Subramanian
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Cut outs in beams for services Reply with quote

Dear Er Srijith,

You may provide rainwater pipes through the columns, provided the area of column is reduced in the  design. However, is it not better to provide it outside, so that they are easily inspected  and repaired, in case of any damage?  Suppose, the pipe is broken, how will you repair it, if it is buried inside the column?!

Best wishes,
NS
[quote="srijith"]Dear sefians,
I do agree with the fact that most of the constructions are dominated by architects who are least bothered of structural implications.
Can anyone explain, if its recomended to provide drainage or any other service line (Rainwater pipe, lightining arrester, AC line to ODU, or Electrical lines) through the columns.
Srijith
Civil Engineer,
Muscat On Dec 1, 2012 2:01 PM, "pathak.ashutoshpathak" <forum> wrote:
Quote:
             Dear Sefians
Most constructions are dominated by Architects and other stake holders
with scant engineering appreciation. The cut outs for many of our
constructions are hence provided arbitrarily.
Unfortunately many of our Engineering Heads too have inadequate
engineering appreciation and their decisions at site (?) are either
too conservative or otherwise. Projects are invariably time
constrained and lack of adequate technical literature on the subject
compound the woes.
This is an important grey area which needs inputs from our experts.


On 12/1/12, vijaydshah  wrote:
      --auto removed--

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thirumalaichettiar
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kind attention of all,
The above topic was discussed in detail under General discussions. You can find many references if you browse the sefi forum.
Also many details were put for the benfit of engineers also in the Experts dedicated forum.

T.RangaRajan.
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thirumalaichettiar
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Dr.N.S Sir,
Many times the architects want the pipes to be hidden and we have to compulsorily do it. As you said if the pipe is blocked inside the column it is a practical problem.

In addition  on the design aspect we need to use some special software like CISCOl or PCCOLUMN etc to design depending on the size of holes since we do not have interaction curves for the same and deigning manually is sometimes difficult..

I do remember I have put asome materials under the experts dedicated forum on this aspect.

T.RangaRajan.
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knsheth123
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sefi Admin & Dear Rangrajan Sir,

The book on opening by Mansur was availed from some students.

Thanks for unloading from the SEFI uploads.

K. N. Sheth
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bijay sarkar
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hollow RCC Columns have some advantage. If the owner of the building wants to add extra floors on the top, capacity of the lower columns can be increased by pouring rich concrete inside the hollow area.

with regards,

bijay sarkar
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sakumar79
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Er. Srijith and Er. Rangarajan sir,
      When architect requires pipe embedded in column, usually I suggest an extension to the column through a brick fin in which the pipe may be embedded. This way, it is concealed and when maintenance is required also, it is possible without damaging the column. But sometimes, due to space restraint (where building has to go close to edge of site leaving only limited space), we are also forced to provide pipe in column this way.

Er. Bijay Sarkar,
    I have a doubt whether the new concrete and old concrete will bond and act as one. Also, the hollow area may be small compared to overall column size. Will the increase in capacity be sufficient to warrant an extra floor capacity? What about the footing? Will there not be an increase in the bearing pressure? Please inform if you have used such means to add a floor and any details available.

On a different note, I wonder if this topic should have been in the general discussion forum.

Yours sincerely,
Arunkumar
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thirumalaichettiar
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Er.Arunkumar,

Please note that the poster has put the topic has "CUT OUTS IN BEAMS FOR SERVICES". Then some one diverted to hole in the column.
More over it not only relates to TALL BUILDINGS ONLY but to ALL TYPES OF STRUCTURES  and it would have better been placed under GENERAL DISCUSSION. Anyway it is better to continue further till 5 th of this month.

As you informed the facade outside the column is a solution to conceal the column  which has hole for  the pipe lines. The main object of providing  a hole in column is for electrical and rain water service lines. Again if the pipe line is blocked or in case it has to be replaced or remove the blockage at the middle of the pipe line is a practical problem and may be you need to break the facade and the pipe line.


The provision of holes in members  pose problem to structural engineers to design manually and we resort to some software including the CSC software and others CISCOL etc as I mentioned in my earlier posting to find some solution. But the software does not have any idea for detailing.

So detailing is very important around the openings and as far as I know there are details for beam cut outs but for column no details are seen due to the member size related to hole size.

There are design curves for hallow columns where the hollowness is comparatively larger to its size but not for small sizes used for service lines.

My answer relates to the provision for services in COLUMNS.

Er.Bijay Sarkar.

I support the comment by Er.Arunkumar in one aspect. Another aspect away from bonding how can you pour concrete in the column if it  is completed one or is there any tremie available to cast concrete if we provide a min. size of 4" dia or smaller sizes of holes?

Or can you support any reference document to your statement so that we can learn?

T.RangaRajan.
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bijay sarkar
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no problem in designing a column of hollow circular section or hollow rectangular section or hollow hexagonal section and may be done by using an excel sheet.
I think, any section symmetrical wrt to its centroidal axis in both the direction may not pose any problem and can be designed based on the design parameters provided in the IS. Experts may please comment.  

"Filling by concrete" part of my posting is withdrawn. I wished to edit that part when i posted, but could not find the "Edit" option active.

with regards,

bijay sarkar
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thirumalaichettiar
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bijay sarkar wrote:
There is no problem in designing a column of hollow circular section or hollow rectangular section or hollow hexagonal section and may be done by using an excel sheet.
I think, any section symmetrical wrt to its centroidal axis in both the direction may not pose any problem and can be designed based on the design parameters provided in the IS. Experts may please comment.  

"Filling by concrete" part of my posting is withdrawn. I wished to edit that part when i posted, but could not find the "Edit" option active.

with regards,

bijay sarkar


Er.BijaySarkar,

You can open the post and you can view at the right corner two items-quote and edit which you can do edit your mail.

T.RangaRajan.
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