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consultancy fee structure
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sriprakash_shastry
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear All

Just a thought. Have you realised maybe that some of your own clients/competitors may be on this forum.

Regards
Sriprakash
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sriprakash_shastry
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear All,

The important aspect is that when someone wants to hire a lawyer they want the best lawyer. When someone wants to hire a doctor they want the best doctor in town. When someone wants to hire an architect they want the best architect in town but when some one wants to hire an engineer they want the cheapest structural engineer and not necessarily the best and not even the one who gives the most economical design.

Then they talk of past experience. How many office buildings have you done. How many factories have you done. How many IT buildings have you done. Can someone tell me , structurally the difference between an office and an IT building.

All these people should get married only to widows and widowers. Because only then they will have past experience.

Regards,
Sriprakash
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slstructural
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:28 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

I agree with Dr Nori. Perhaps the problem is that all of us are lenient about the fee issue for the fact that we feel that we are  not directly  liable (legally). Hence, consultancy has become a trade. The moment it becomes a legal liability, all of us will tighten our belts. But we must assume the responsibility and claim our position and fee professionally which will also bring in respect.  Design with dignity.
Rangarao


On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 7:21 PM, jlakhlani <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
[quote]            Dear Viren

Unfortunately, no consensus is prevailing among structural engineering fraternity in India regarding fee structure. So, whatever you quote, there shall be someone ready to work at fees lower than that. I am sorry but this is not to dishearten you or any young engineer. On the contrary, I want to highlight a very important point which is rarely discussed while deciding the fees.

Above mentioned scenario exists because there is no system to verify quality of services, in form of peer review of design, or standard benchmark for content and level of detailing in the drawings. Due to this, consultants working at lower rates have no option but to resort to corner cutting in their services.

In a way, this is a very good situation for young engineers who really want to do good work. Because you take any city of India and you will find majority of the consultants following the same practice - lower fees and lesser services. So, if you raise the bar and provide superior quality of services, your competition shall be within that minority of consultants who are doing good work.

And from my own experience, I can assure you that it pays a lot to be in that minority. While discussing the fees with your prospective clients, highlight the level of services that he can get from no one but you. And clients are always ready to pay, we have to learn how to get it from them.

Regards.

Jayant Lakhlani
For
Lakhlani Associates
www.lakhlani.com
      --auto removed--

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krishnaPEB
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:32 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

Dear All

Good to see all the email regarding engineering fee. I'm into PEB (Built-up) steel building design and detailing. Any advise about how about the design and detailing charge. Is it based on area or tonnage. Since some building will have huge area but complexity is very little like designing one frame and place that in all the grid lines. Some will have small area but complexity will be huge with skew wall (frame width will change along building length and each frame should be designed seperately) or like heavy top running cranes extr.,


This is my first email in SEFI although i was reading all the emails. Looking forward for more comments on my email.


With best regards,
Krishna R

On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 10:57 AM, satish_jain <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear all,I disagree with the comment that for multistoried building the charges should lower. One has to understand that with buildings becoming taller, the complexity of smartly dealing with the lateral forces increases tremendously and as such the fee should also increase. I think a fee of Rs 10 to 12 for buildings upto 45 to 50 stories will yield good structural engineering from the consultant and hence would save many fold more for the client by virtue of good concepts, good detailing ultimately leading to economical and efficient structural systems. Regards,Satish Jain- from Vodafone
From:  "ajayk"
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 08:37:31 +0530
To:
ReplyTo:  general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure


     Agree with Sangeetha.   More so when the construction is multi-storied. I really do not believe the client/architect would pay us the same value for typical floors. Arguments could be on the lines that they are all typical with minor modifications, if any, and hence the realistic sft on which has to charge is much smaller than the sft of construction.    Hence, getting a 4-5 rs/sft is a dreamer for a structural engineering-alone firm. Typically, quote is based mostly on the man-hour basis for core engineering and ofcourse admin and asset overheads.   Big companies by virtue of the reputation tend to charge more as they generally have heavy overheads. Smaller companies typically are in a fix, a 2 rs/sft is generally the best. During recession (2010), the charges were as low as 0.5 rs/sft (peanuts, true). Since then, market has improved but on the importance aspect for structural engineers considering the complete supply chain from concept to commissioning, structural engrs are paid v low (probably MEP are paid lowest). It is a bit ironical considering the importance of structural engrs in the whole supply chain.   The natural solution is to expand the company to include architectural (and MEP) in which case, the quote can suddenly jump upto even 7-8 rs/sft, which is reasonably handsome and provide decent returns on projects.   Building industry is highly fragmented one and the market pulls you down to quote so low. Coz concepts like niche etc may not work for a routine small firm and the best way to quote is to quote less. This prolly explaing why structural engrs r paid less as well (lets say as compared to architects).   Hope it helps.   Regards   On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 1:33 PM, SANGEETA WIJ wrote:
Quote:
Dr Abubaker has listed a preferred or a very theoretical figure and is on every Consultant’s wish-list; in the real life you may get shockers as structural consultants sometimes quote as low as 50 paise per sq feet! In fact I would be happy to get 1. To 1.5 % of structural cost as fees and even 4-6/- per sq feet for structures would make my day, for a Project of roughly 10 lakh sq feet or more; for smaller configurations or floors or villas, one must charge a lumpsum after evaluating your own costing based on design engineer’s and draftsman’s time, stationery, printing, computer and software cost, office executive support and rent, meetings’ time Regards Sangeeta Wij etc…. From: abubaker_ka [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))] Sent: 20 January 2013 11:21 To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org) (general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)) (general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org) (general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org))) Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure Dear Viren I fully agree with Mr. Jayant, regarding the fee structure for structural Engineers. But generally there is a common practice in our place. For structural design and detailing one can charge 0.5% of the cost of construction . The cost of construction in our place comes to Rs.1000/sq.ft. for the structural part.That is, the structural consultancy rate /sq.ft is Rs.5.00. This will end up in Rs.4/sq.ft. Or even less at the time of closing the account unless the designer is careful in issuing drawings. According to me the reasonable rate for structural design is 1% of the cost of structure.( Rs.10.00/ sq.ft). Then only one can do good quality work. If the architectural and structural designs are done together, 2.5% of cost of construction or Rs.40/ sq.ft can be charged. This excludes any interior work or site supervision. With warm regards Prof.Dr.K.A.AbuBaker Sent from my iPad On 19 Jan 2013, at 19:21, "jlakhlani" forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))))> wrote: --auto removed--       --
     



     







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satyen.ramani
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:02 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

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SANGEETA WIJ
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:19 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

Dear Mr Chattopadhyay

2% fees in India is still a dream for engineers, and very few privileged ones manage to get it; our real “aukat” is primarily fixed by our “Mai Baap” the Architect, who really decides how much does he feel like sharing for structural analysis, design and drawings(including endless revisions and endless no of meetings).I am sorry to have used a little crude language, but this is the harsh reality.

Elsewhere, even in open competition, where some Clients wish to engage engineers directly(it’s a very select Coterie of Clients who go in for such a practice), some of our own friends quote ridiculously low rates like 50P and 75 p per sq feet to “bag” the Project(God only knows what do they do with it after bagging it!).As SEs, we are openly challenged, our payments withheld or delayed endlessly and there is no authority we can approach for justice. So much for burning the midnight oil to deliver the umpteenth revision on time!

Our problems will never get solved unless all the Engineering Associations join hands and get us the much awaited and much abused Engineers’ Bill(as for Institution of Engineers, the less said about them the better, as they have played spoil sport thrice whenever the Bill was ready to be tabled in Pariament).Till then we can forget about our due recognition and due rates and go on being exploited by one and all!(I hate to be giving such a negative picture, but this is an average and true picture, at least in Delhi, where SEs are a dime a dozen!)
Regards
Sangeeta Wij

From: gautam chattopadhyay [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: 22 January 2013 01:35
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure



to indrajit, sangeeta, Viren

when we charge on basis of floor area + foundation we actually charge on the basis of construction cost only. A tentative amount per floor area is assumed as construction cost say 150 per sft or 1600 per sqm. Now if the fees be ascertained at 2% there is no harm i think. Architecture and structure may then be apportioned within the organisation. Viren and others raised a crucial question once again. this scenario is typical of india since there is no PE system here. anyone can sign a drawing. In USA only PEs and in UK, Australia, New Zealand only chartered engineers are allowed to sign drawings. Hence the rates go higher and quality of design and drawings are maintained. Though late, Institution of Engineers India is thinking of introducing PE system but I know it will change the scenario. Cunning politicians will raise question of democracy and will say there should be equal rights of engineers (LOLS). As u know such jestors are plenty in India.

On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 3:05 PM, gautam chattopadhyay forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
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yacub
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:53 am    Post subject: Consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

Sir

I agree with the views of Dr Aboobaker. We should charge minimum of 1% of the project cost. It is better if we get 2%. which is possible for complecated structurers.

I am attaching the fee structure proposed in KMBR. Kindly commend on the fee structure as well as on the registration of professionals & their grading.

The revision is proposed based on the NBC, NDMA guidelines & model building rules prepared by NDMA

Dr. Yacub Mohan George



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NDSMA has directed all state governments to revise their building rules based on these guidelines

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RBI has issued direction to all banks to ensure the structural safety of the buildings. Please refer to the forms that are to be signed by Structural peer reviewer.

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This document was perpared based on the abobe 2. Fee structure is based on the fee structure of archetects

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abhishekpathade
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:58 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

Dear All

I appreciate what Sangeeta ma'am has said. We know there is a problem n it can be solved by getting the engineers bill. So let's look at the solution and what can we do to get the engineers bill passed asap. #Agendaforchange  
Regards
Abhishek
Design Engineer
Sharjah UAE  
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus  On Jan 22, 2013 10:30 AM, "SANGEETA WIJ" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear Mr Chattopadhyay

2% fees in India is still a dream for engineers, and very few privileged ones manage to get it; our real “aukat” is primarily fixed by our “Mai Baap” the Architect, who really decides how much does he feel like sharing for structural analysis, design and drawings(including endless revisions and endless no of meetings).I am sorry to have used a little crude language, but this is the harsh reality.

Elsewhere, even in open competition, where some Clients wish to engage engineers directly(it’s a very select Coterie of Clients who go in for such a practice), some of our own friends quote ridiculously low rates like 50P and 75 p per sq feet to “bag” the Project(God only knows what do they do with it after bagging it!).As SEs, we are openly challenged, our payments withheld or delayed endlessly and there is no authority we can approach for justice. So much for burning the midnight oil to deliver the umpteenth revision on time!

Our problems will never get solved unless all the Engineering Associations join hands and get us the much awaited and much abused Engineers’ Bill(as for Institution of Engineers, the less said about them the better, as they have played spoil sport thrice whenever the Bill was ready to be tabled in Pariament).Till then we can forget about our due recognition and due rates and go on being exploited by one and all!(I hate to be giving such a negative picture, but this is an average and true picture, at least in Delhi, where SEs are a dime a dozen!)
Regards
Sangeeta Wij

From: gautam chattopadhyay [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)]
Sent: 22 January 2013 01:35
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure



to indrajit, sangeeta, Viren

when we charge on basis of floor area + foundation we actually charge on the basis of construction cost only. A tentative amount per floor area is assumed as construction cost say 150 per sft or 1600 per sqm. Now if the fees be ascertained at 2% there is no harm i think. Architecture and structure may then be apportioned within the organisation. Viren and others raised a crucial question once again. this scenario is typical of india since there is no PE system here. anyone can sign a drawing. In USA only PEs and in UK, Australia, New Zealand only chartered engineers are allowed to sign drawings. Hence the rates go higher and quality of design and drawings are maintained. Though late, Institution of Engineers India is thinking of introducing PE system but I know it will change the scenario. Cunning politicians will raise question of democracy and will say there should be equal rights of engineers (LOLS). As u know such jestors are plenty in India.

On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 3:05 PM, gautam chattopadhyay forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))> wrote:
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Kaustubh Vaishnav
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:13 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

I think for PEB designs people charges 3-3.5 RS. Per KGKaustubhSent from my BlackBerry® smartphone from !DEA
From: "krishnaPEB" <forum@sefindia.org>
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 12:01:26 +0530
To: <general@sefindia.org>
ReplyTo: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure

     Dear All  Good to see all the email regarding engineering fee. I'm into PEB (Built-up) steel building design and detailing. Any advise about how about the design and detailing charge. Is it based on area or tonnage. Since some building will have huge area but complexity is very little like designing one frame and place that in all the grid lines. Some will have small area but complexity will be huge with skew wall (frame width will change along building length and each frame should be designed seperately) or like heavy top running cranes extr.,   This is my first email in SEFI although i was reading all the emails. Looking forward for more comments on my email.   With best regards, Krishna R  On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 10:57 AM, satish_jain  wrote:        --auto removed--

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bsec
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:19 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

Dear All,

I agree with the views expressed by Mr Nori. The only way to get what we deserve is to improve our services. There is no denying from the fact that average quality of services provided by us (as a community) is poor and requires significant improvement.

It would be much fruitful if the discussion in the forum is focused on “How we can improve the quality of our Services” & “How we structural engineers can improve our image in the society by showcasing our good works”.

I am of the view that structural engineering forums and professional institutions (like IE, IASE, SEFI, ACE, ICI, ..etc.) have much much greater role to play (than what they are doing at the moment) in achieving the two tasks highlighted above. In my view, these institutions should come forward and help facilitate the BIS and IRC to improve our codes and standards, which are archaic in many cases. These institutions must come out with guidelines for minimum fee structure, code of ethics on professional practices being followed …etc. They should elevate themselves to a position where their recommendations will be taken by the government agencies.  

I am aware that it is not an easy task. It requires great leadership qualities of the flag bearers and selfless dedication to serve the community.

With best wishes

Alok Bhowmick  


From: nori [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 8:57 AM
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure



Dear Mr Barua,

I am indeed very happy to read your comments. Congratulations for being frank and forthright.

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