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Proof Checking
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cckeshav
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Joined: 28 Jun 2010
Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:23 pm    Post subject: Proof Checking Reply with quote

Dear SEFIans,

I had a very bad experience with regard to Proof checking. One private designer was made to proof check our designs by the "Client". The proof checking expert(?) used our model, our designs, and made some minor changes (with respect to ductile detailing) and claimed to the client that he can show a savings of X tonnes of steel if the project is given to him. The "Client", with utter disregard to ethics, removed us from the design contract and gave the job (for which we had almost completed the designs and drawings) to the proof checking expert(?). This is a sick industry with such unhealthy and unethical practice. Sometimes I tend to call "Civil Engineering" as "Criminal Engineering!!".

I agree that the Client has the final say and he, as per his choice, can change the structural engineer (as long as he pays for the effort). However, for a Proof checking expert to accept such a job is not ethical. He should have flatly rejected the job.

C. Channakeshava

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Manoharbs_eq
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sir,

Really sorry to hear that. Peer review consultant should stick to review job for said project, if there is any savings should inform to consultant regarding that and suggest to change the reinforcement according so as to save steel that is value engineering.

But what that consultant did is non ethical and as engineering community we must stop such practices or black list from practice.


Healthy competition should be adopted, upon arch dwg one has to propose system and than at tender stage the consultant should be chosen.

Rgds
Manohar
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gautam chattopadhyay
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Joined: 17 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:39 am    Post subject: Proof Checking Reply with quote

keshav this is an example of the unethical and immoral competition now going on in the field of consultancy. Some entrants are trying to convince people that "they can save", "they made the structure stable, else it could collapse". All these are happening in India because here right amount of money has been accumulated in wrong hands. Most of our clients are unfortunately either illiterate or semi literate. They purchase service of consultant but think them to be slaves. Consultants in turn resort to unhealthy competition for aquiring the "market".

On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 8:06 PM, cckeshav <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear SEFIans,

I had a very bad experience with regard to Proof checking. One private designer was made to proof check our designs by the "Client". The proof checking expert(?) used our model, our designs, and made some minor changes (with respect to ductile detailing) and claimed to the client that he can show a savings of X tonnes of steel if the project is given to him. The "Client", with utter disregard to ethics, removed us from the design contract and gave the job (for which we had almost completed the designs and drawings) to the proof checking expert(?). This is a sick industry with such unhealthy and unethical practice. Sometimes I tend to call "Civil Engineering" as "Criminal Engineering!!".

I agree that the Client has the final say and he, as per his choice, can change the structural engineer (as long as he pays for the effort). However, for a Proof checking expert to accept such a job is not ethical. He should have flatly rejected the job.

C. Channakeshava
     



     



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AandA INDORE
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Joined: 19 Jul 2010
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:41 am    Post subject: Proof Checking Reply with quote

Most of might had experience similir to Shri Channakeshava !

None of us could help if our own professional brothers dont stop backbitting !

On 2/28/13, cckeshav <forum@sefindia.org> wrote:
Quote:
Dear SEFIans,

I had a very bad experience with regard to Proof checking. One private
designer was made to proof check our designs by the "Client". The proof
checking expert(?) used our model, our designs, and made some minor changes
(with respect to ductile detailing) and claimed to the client that he can
show a savings of X tonnes of steel if the project is given to him. The
"Client", with utter disregard to ethics, removed us from the design
contract and gave the job (for which we had almost completed the designs and
drawings) to the proof checking expert(?). This is a sick industry with such
unhealthy and unethical practice. Sometimes I tend to call "Civil
Engineering" as "Criminal Engineering!!".

I agree that the Client has the final say and he, as per his choice, can
change the structural engineer (as long as he pays for the effort). However,
for a Proof checking expert to accept such a job is not ethical. He should
have flatly rejected the job.

C. Channakeshava









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zubsaif
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Joined: 06 Feb 2010
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject: Proof Checking Reply with quote

This is unethical. these micky mouses in the ce fraternity. People with money in their mind will end up problem loosing the face of the client. Intact the suggestions should be given to the job holder. We should not become opportunist, this is chronic disease within us. First respect the protocols. They will not earn nothing in the end. Very sorry for their attitudes because they are the ultimate losers.

Zubair

On ٢٨‏/٠٢‏/٢٠١٣, at ٥:٣٦ م, "cckeshav" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:


Quote:
           Dear SEFIans,

I had a very bad experience with regard to Proof checking. One private designer was made to proof check our designs by the "Client". The proof checking expert(?) used our model, our designs, and made some minor changes (with respect to ductile detailing) and claimed to the client that he can show a savings of X tonnes of steel if the project is given to him. The "Client", with utter disregard to ethics, removed us from the design contract and gave the job (for which we had almost completed the designs and drawings) to the proof checking expert(?). This is a sick industry with such unhealthy and unethical practice. Sometimes I tend to call "Civil Engineering" as "Criminal Engineering!!".

I agree that the Client has the final say and he, as per his choice, can change the structural engineer (as long as he pays for the effort). However, for a Proof checking expert to accept such a job is not ethical. He should have flatly rejected the job.

C. Channakeshava
     



     



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partha
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:02 pm    Post subject: Proof Checking Reply with quote

Ethics are not taught in the Engineering classes. It comes from one's parents and upbringing. We must accept their are different class of people everywhere.
But if he changed for good without compromising any safety aspect and still have savings we must acknowledge it as better engineering. Is not it?
Regards  
Partha
On Mar 3, 2013 7:13 PM, "zubsaif" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:[quote]            This is unethical. these micky mouses in the ce fraternity. People with money in their mind will end up problem loosing the face of the client. Intact the suggestions should be given to the job holder. We should not become opportunist, this is chronic disease within us. First respect the protocols. They will not earn nothing in the end. Very sorry for their attitudes because they are the ultimate losers.

Zubair

On ٢٨ /٠٢ /٢٠١٣, at ٥:٣٦ م, "cckeshav" forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:


      --auto removed--

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Ajit Gijare
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Joined: 25 Sep 2009
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:05 pm    Post subject: Proof Checking Reply with quote

Whenever I get opportunity to work as proof checker, I tell client that I will not accept your offer to work as designer for same project. I also ask not to change designer.  On 3 Mar 2013 19:13, "zubsaif" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:[quote]            This is unethical. these micky mouses in the ce fraternity. People with money in their mind will end up problem loosing the face of the client. Intact the suggestions should be given to the job holder. We should not become opportunist, this is chronic disease within us. First respect the protocols. They will not earn nothing in the end. Very sorry for their attitudes because they are the ultimate losers.

Zubair

On ٢٨ /٠٢ /٢٠١٣, at ٥:٣٦ م, "cckeshav" forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:


      --auto removed--

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asultan
SEFI Member
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Joined: 18 Feb 2012
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Proof Checking Reply with quote

cckeshav wrote:
Dear SEFIans,

I had a very bad experience with regard to Proof checking. One private designer was made to proof check our designs by the "Client". The proof checking expert(?) used our model, our designs, and made some minor changes (with respect to ductile detailing) and claimed to the client that he can show a savings of X tonnes of steel if the project is given to him. The "Client", with utter disregard to ethics, removed us from the design contract and gave the job (for which we had almost completed the designs and drawings) to the proof checking expert(?). This is a sick industry with such unhealthy and unethical practice. Sometimes I tend to call "Civil Engineering" as "Criminal Engineering!!".

I agree that the Client has the final say and he, as per his choice, can change the structural engineer (as long as he pays for the effort). However, for a Proof checking expert to accept such a job is not ethical. He should have flatly rejected the job.

C. Channakeshava

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One of the unfortunate trends in proof checking is that the checkers will try to make things extremely difficult for the consultant by asking for such things as manual calculations for a multi-storey building frame. It happened to me once with an MES Project, when the contractor was asked to get the design proof checked at a local NIT. The Checker, HOD Structures refused to accept calculations done on Excel and Staad Pro and demanded manual calcs, which was not part of our agreement with the client. Ultimately, the Client ended up hiring the Proof Checker as a Consultant for that project and for all future projects as well.

I am not saying that this happens everywhere in India, but it does happens. What is shocking is academicians resorting to such unethical practices.
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ARUP_MUNSI
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Joined: 21 Sep 2010
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:22 am    Post subject: Proof Checking Reply with quote

Dear ALL

This happens in every project of CIVIL engineering. We are taught/told in our ragging period – CIVIL means – Corruption Is Vital In Life. As a fresher we brushed it away as a Joke, but in reality it happens every time. Take the great example of engineer-writer Sri Narayan Sanyal from his book SATYAKAM- cement=K*gangamati (soil of Ganges), where K is a constant depends on bribe money.

First of all we should challenge the proof checker and we should have the undertaking that he/she has only the right to check safety and in no case he can use reproduce our drawings/documents/MODELS.

Second he/she cannot “claim” the ownership of the design, which is produced by us – the proof checker is limited to giving suggestions only.

Third we should sue the client if he removes any party without any valid reasons and compensation.

Fourth all the civil engineering fraternity should be united and ethics should be the only binding force. Come on guys if the architects can have their own registration society why shouldn’t we?

Regards
Arup

" Keep smiling as nobody wants to hear about your troubles, they have wagon loads of their own"- George Bernard Shaw


From: zubsaif [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: 03 March 2013 19:13
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Proof Checking



This is unethical. these micky mouses in the ce fraternity. People with money in their mind will end up problem loosing the face of the client. Intact the suggestions should be given to the job holder. We should not become opportunist, this is chronic disease within us. First respect the protocols. They will not earn nothing in the end. Very sorry for their attitudes because they are the ultimate losers.

Zubair

On ٢٨‏/٠٢‏/٢٠١٣, at ٥:٣٦ م, "cckeshav" forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:


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prof.arc
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:12 am    Post subject: Proof Checking Reply with quote

I fully agree with Mr. Munsi that some pro-active actions are necessary
the evils of proof checking must be addressed
it requires radical action including the elimination of stranglehold of codes
I am old and hence not afraid to propose out of the box [crazy ideas]
await my next posting

ARC

On 3/4/13, ARUP_MUNSI <forum@sefindia.org> wrote:
Quote:
Dear ALL

This happens in every project of CIVIL engineering. We are taught/told in
our ragging period CIVIL means Corruption Is Vital In Life. As a fresher
we brushed it away as a Joke, but in reality it happens every time. Take the
great example of engineer-writer Sri Narayan Sanyal from his book SATYAKAM-
cement=K*gangamati (soil of Ganges), where K is a constant depends on bribe
money.

First of all we should challenge the proof checker and we should have the
undertaking that he/she has only the right to check safety and in no case he
can use reproduce our drawings/documents/MODELS.

Second he/she cannot claim the ownership of the design, which is produced
by us the proof checker is limited to giving suggestions only.

Third we should sue the client if he removes any party without any valid
reasons and compensation.

Fourth all the civil engineering fraternity should be united and ethics
should be the only binding force. Come on guys if the architects can have
their own registration society why shouldnt we?

Regards
Arup

" Keep smiling as nobody wants to hear about your troubles, they have wagon
loads of their own"- George Bernard Shaw


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