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[Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India
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sunil sodhai
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:00 am    Post subject: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

in india there are two systems one where there is theory is taught and
practical knowledge is of no use,there is industry that has nothing to
do with college or institution,i went many colleges so that i attaches
to myself with colleges so that i can refresh theoratical background
but everytime they said your practical knowledge is of no use to us
,colleges said we are here to pass out students in university exam and
produce good marks in exams so that is state of education where
industry and education are two poles one is north and other is
south,it feel like that what is taught in colleges has only of
historical value.in developed countires that is not the case education
institution and industry are partner to solve each other problems by
coordinations,

On 2/21/16, nrk <forum@sefindia.org> wrote:
Quote:
Dear Prof.Goswami,

From times immemorial, the hallmark of a good student has always been
learning through asking relevant questions (tad viddhi pranipatena pari
prasnena sevaya ...)

I strongly believe that no matter what, one cannot make a shining diamond
out of a gravel stone.

Two reasons have held me back from joining academia.

1) I will not have a choice in selecting the people I want to teach and
learn from. Most people today believe that the purpose of education is to
get a job. I strongly disagree with this view. I believe in Mohandas
Gandhi's views on the purpose of education. If you are unaware of his views,
please read Hind Swaraj. Mere literacy or knowledge of a trade does not make
one educated. We have many literates in our country, but very few educated.

2) I will not have the freedom to choose what I want to teach.

Best wishes,
Ravi.


On Monday, 15 February 2016, rupen <forum@sefindia.org> wrote:

Quote:
Dear SEFIans:

Since the beginning of the e-conference, many of you have written on the
subject of “education”. Rather, you have expressed disappointment,
frustration, and even anger, on the issue of current state of education in
Structural Engineering in the country. It was necessary to do so before we
could collectively think of deliverables to improve the situation. Let us
do that this week.

To begin with, let us now focus on what we can do rather than spending our
time and energy discussing what Government, AICTE, Universities should do,
why lack of infrastructure, etc. Few suggestions have already been made,
and here is an attempt to highlight key issues to take the discussion
forward.

On the issue of industry complaining about poor quality of fresh
graduates: Yes, they are right, the quality is bad. There are no two
opinions about it. But, two additional issues are also worth taking note
of. First, in the good old days, there used to be a compulsory “Industrial
Training” as part of BE/BTech curriculum, which most of us would agree,
was very useful. It gave the aspiring engineer an opportunity to see the
exciting world of structural engineering practice, meet senior engineers,
develop contacts, and above all, feel inspired about the prospect of being
part of the system. Is this happening today as well? And second, today
those who say that the fresh graduates know nothing, can they pledge their
honor and say that when they joined the industry as fresh graduates, they
knew everything? Were they not groomed to be what they are today by their
seniors? Again, is this happening today as well?

In the recent past, the reality is that industrial training has become a
farce in most companies. Students are made to sit and develop spreadsheets
or simply thrown to construction sites, both without proper guidance and
supervision. Because of “cut-throat competition in the market”, senior
engineers do not have time to spend with these trainee students. Further,
after joining, a fresh graduate is expected to immediately start
“producing drawings”  the best guidance on offer is “look up what we did
for the previous project and use it as a mother”, meaning copy and
reproduce what was done before. It comes as a shock for most fresh
graduates and shatters their dreams. And, after this, we expect them to be
ethical in their conduct in future!

So, can this situation be changed a bit? Can companies step forward and
take charge, and offer meaningful grooming of trainee students and fresh
graduates? Yes, there are some companies who do practice this, but surely
that number is too small. Can we have more voluntary participation?


Next, on the issue of appropriate curriculum: Some top institutes
undertake curriculum revision, probably once in a decade or so. Some also
do request input from industry. While the general perception is that this
exercise is futile in that they have only helped dilute the curriculum
till now, still, can this opportunity be used to the advantage? Every top
executive of a company today is an alumnus/alumna of an engineering
college/institute/university. Is it possible for them to re-establish
contact with their alma-mater and impress upon them the need to have a
proper curriculum in place as the first step? Is it possible for the
industry to “dictate” what ought to there in the curriculum, not just for
their immediate gain alone, but for betterment of the profession in the
long run too? Of course, there will be resistance from the academia. So in
return, industry may have to promise, possibly recruitment or something,
but still, is this a possibility in the future? Also, with this
partnership in place, will it not be easy for the industry to engage with
academia more in terms of providing ideas of meaningful practical
projects, special courses, etc.? Even the idea of joint guidance of
projects can be pushed forward. Only, it will require “time” from the
industry, which is critical no doubt. But, can industry afford to offer
that to help academia? For a change, can industry take the lead?

With warm regards…
Rupen Goswami








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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:00 am    Post subject: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

Respected Engineer Mr. Prabhakar Sir,

I used the word "amusement" to refer to comments on teachers in various postings of this e-conf which were not complimentary
Assuming the teacher to be capable, he is required to follow a syllabus for courses as approved by academic council.
At UG level, only a few courses deal with structural engineering aspects as a part of civil engineering curriculum.
That is why I feel suggestion in the form of model syllabus should have been the aim to be achieved arising out of e-conf


Learning is a life long process - college education just gives an initial impetus to motivate life long learning.
I have taught for a very very long time. What I learnt at Bachelor level, has practically nothing to do with what I had to teach and research


Acharya Devo Bhava


with regards
ARC (ARChandrasekaran)

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rupen
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 3:53 pm    Post subject: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

Dear Sri Ravi-jee:

Greetings!

Yes, I agree with you, but partially. Even if it is a genuine diamond, you still need someone, first to find it, and then to shine it. This is where academia comes in.

I completely agree with you that the purpose of education should not be just to get a job. I had touched on this on day one of this e-conference.

And about joining academia, this is the only place where you would get paid to learn! There is no end to that learning. And, yes, I do have freedom to choose:

(1) what to teach (my specialisation and interest),

(2) how to teach (try different methods of teaching including tweaking the curriculum, if required), and

(3) whom to teach (choose my post-graduate students, in particular).

It is a wonderful place to be in!

With warm regards...

Rupen Goswami






रुपेन गोस्वामी / Rupen Goswami, PhD

सहायक प्राध्यापक / Assistant Professor

जनपदीय अभियांत्रिकी विभाग / Department of Civil Engineering

भारतीय प्रोधयोगिकी संस्थान मद्रास / Indian Institute of Technology Madras

चेन्नै ६०० ०३६ / Chennai 600036, INDIA

दूरभाश / Phone: 91 44 2257 4301 || फैक्स / Fax: 91 44 2257 5286 || वेब / Web: https://home.iitm.ac.in/rg/

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B.V.Harsoda
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear All,
  It is not easy to change engineering education standard immediately as we expect but we can do some thing for fresher by sharing our experience to them who desire to learn.
  Forum can arrange Experience based E-training for different subject which are useful in structural design & detailing, proof checking, technical audit & structural execution at site including quality assurance & quality control.
  E-training  may be more effective if SEFI can think to establish regional and zonal level counseling centers at each state utilizing honorary services from our interested experienced senior members.
  

With Best Regards,

  B. V. Harsoda
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Dr. N. Subramanian
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

Dear Prof. Rupen

You have said that  you are able to do the following:


(1) what to teach (my specialisation and interest),
(2) how to teach (try different methods of teaching including tweaking the curriculum, if required), and

(3) whom to teach (choose my post-graduate students, in particular).

It is because you are with IITM. Not all teachers will have such freedom, surely those with Private colleges will not have any freedom.


I wanted to ask one more thing to you.


Already we have so many Engineering graduates, due to mushrooming of educational institutes. I believe there are 8000+ Engg. colleges in India (16.7 lakh  students at UG level!).  In addition Now-a-days universities are offering online courses, like NPTEL in India(Details are given for others at the end about NPTEL) . Will those who are passing these examinations also considered as Engineers? Can they also claim that they are consultants as they know everything offered by IITs?


Warm regards,
Subramanian




Info for others interested in NPTEL:
___________________________________________________

NPTEL OFFERS 16 NEW OPEN ONLINE COURSES - ENROLLMENT OPEN
NPTEL, a project of the 7 older IITs and IISc, funded by MHRD, Govt. of India began in 2003,
whose primary aim was for faculty of these institutes to create content for courses in Engineering,
Sciences, Humanities and Management and make it available for free for anyone to view,
download and distribute. The contents are shared under the CC-BY-SA licence. There are 950+
courses in this mode on the website http://nptel.ac.in
Since March 2014, NPTEL has begun the process of offering open online courses based on the
moocs model. The open course, for which enrollment is free, is followed by the conduct of an inperson
proctored exam, which is optional for a fee. Students can get certificates from the IITs by writing this exam. Some
statistics about this:
Completed as of December 2015: 93 courses
Enrollments on the portal: 6 lakhs+
Number certified: 14000+
Portal: https://onlinecourses.nptel.ac.in
NPTEL now opens 16 10hr-4 week courses for enrollment, which will begin on March 14 2016.
Last date for enrollment: 14 March 5pm
Exam dates for the courses: 24 April and 1 May 2016
Course duration: March 14 - April 15 2016
___________________________________________________




rupen wrote:
Dear Sri Ravi-jee:

Greetings!

Yes, I agree with you, but partially. Even if it is a genuine diamond, you still need someone, first to find it, and then to shine it. This is where academia comes in.

I completely agree with you that the purpose of education should not be just to get a job. I had touched on this on day one of this e-conference.

And about joining academia, this is the only place where you would get paid to learn! There is no end to that learning. And, yes, I do have freedom to choose:

(1) what to teach (my specialisation and interest),

(2) how to teach (try different methods of teaching including tweaking the curriculum, if required), and

(3) whom to teach (choose my post-graduate students, in particular).

It is a wonderful place to be in!

With warm regards...

Rupen Goswami






रुपेन गोस्वामी / Rupen Goswami, PhD

सहायक प्राध्यापक / Assistant Professor

जनपदीय अभियांत्रिकी विभाग / Department of Civil Engineering

भारतीय प्रोधयोगिकी संस्थान मद्रास / Indian Institute of Technology Madras

चेन्नै ६०० ०३६ / Chennai 600036, INDIA

दूरभाश / Phone: 91 44 2257 4301 || फैक्स / Fax: 91 44 2257 5286 || वेब / Web: https://home.iitm.ac.in/rg/

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rupen
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:00 pm    Post subject: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

Dear All:

After two weeks of intense brainstorming, we have finally reached the end of this e-conference. I acknowledge each and every one of your critical inputs, suggestions and criticisms that you have voiced; indeed there were quite a number of both thought provoking and pointed posts. But, this is not really the end. This should be seen as only the beginning of a long process of cooperation among all the stakeholders to improve the current state of our Profession. Also, it is amazing to see that the topic of education had maximum number of posts, either direct or indirect with change of subject. Nonetheless, it shows that collectively, WE still value it and consider it to be as important as ever. Therefore, here is my attempt to summarise the critical points discussed, and not necessarily highlight individual posts or ideas.

The domain of discussion ranged wide and far, from the highly philosophical realm of education versus literacy, to the more practical immediate question of how to make Structural engineers employable. In this regard, the following specific points were raised:

(1) Nurturing
It is important to nurture a young mind, in the right way, early in the career. There has to be role-models, and history of great achievements of the profession needs to be highlighted. In this regard, academia should consider inviting experienced professionals more often to give, at least, invited talks. And senior engineers from industry will have to pledge a little bit more of their precious time to enthusiastically deliver such talks.

(2) Strong Fundamentals
Having lack of grasp on the fundamentals of the subject is NOT an option, is perhaps opined umpteen numbers of times in various forms. Even qualitative reasoning of deflected shape, SFD, BMD, etc, is probably a more important item to be ingrained than sophisticated analytical tools at the undergraduate level. Academia will have to take note of this and act accordingly (in terms of modifying conduct or structure of courses, or even curriculum).

(3) Skills
While knowing is important, it is not enough. To be able to communicate is perhaps more important. More number of small term paper or project based presentations as part of regular courses could help students develop better communication skills. Also, design studio based activities could help students learn to work in groups and debate contradicting ideas. In all these, engineering drawing (manual sketches and drawings to CAD) is an essential tool and must be harnessed as an integral part of regular design courses. Academia will have to work towards helping students develop these skills.

(4) Training
The notion of gap between academia and industry is probably a misconceived one. Training is an integral part of any professional service (reminds me of the mention of military training!). In case of Structural engineers, this has to be imparted to young aspirants in two stages, first, as industrial training as part of the curriculum, and then, as an initial phase of training as part of the practice. The so called gap can be narrowed down significantly through proper training, and industry has to contribute strongly for the cause.

(5) Character
A profession is as strong as the character of the professionals. Seeing compromise around not only weakens the character of a young engineer, it leads him to wrong path. Academia should stop compromising on quality of education imparted and industry should stop compromising on quality of service provided. But who is academia and industry? First, it is each and every one of us, the senior, the teacher, the boss. We need to introspect. Needless to say, this is the most challenging task at our hand.

I thank one and all for actively participating in this e-conference. If I have missed any specific or significant point, it is not intentional but I apologise for that. I hope that each one of us had something positive to take home from this e-conference to make our Profession better.

With warm regards...
Rupen Goswami
=

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

Dear Dr. Subramanian:

Yes, I am privileged to be at IITM. But can others really not try and do anything? Nobody comes and gives you freedom on a platter, no matter where you are. At least in your class, you always have freedom to teach the way you want to teach.

About the NPTEL courses, you are actually questing the very purpose of the whole programme. On your specific questions:
"Will those who are passing these examinations also considered as Engineers? Can they also claim that they are consultants as they know everything offered by IITs?"
My blunt answer is no. Do you consider a distant education program certificate same as a university degree? I believe not. NPTEL offers a "certificate". Also, please recall on the first day, I tried putting stress on proper basic education over any form of continuing education, or anything else. I strongly believe that first, we need to establish minimum quality of basic education. These can then help add on to that basic education.

With warm regards...
Rupen Goswami
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VPandya
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:51 am    Post subject: What it takes to be an Civil/Structural Engineering Expert ? Reply with quote

Dear  Sefi Engrs . ,
As you know USA is a country with Maximum Number of LAW SUITS in Structural Failures . My  Prof .,  Dr.  J.E. Johnson at University of Wisconsin , Madison was considered an expert in SHELL STRUCTURES . He was called  as  EXPERT WITNESS in many SHELL STRUCTURES  failures . He would share his court experiences  with us students . Here is an article to help Indian Construction Industry using Civil/Structural Engineering experts :
How Do you Become an Expert in a Specific   Civil Engineering Niche?BY  Anthony Fasano
From: ASCE News, 11th August 2017 : Web-Link:



http://news.asce.org/ask-anthony-how-do-you-become-an-expert-in-a-specific-civil-engineering-niche/?utm_campaign=Comm-20170811-ASCEnews%20Weekly&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua


Regards.


Vasudeo Pandya P.E.
Structural Engineer
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VPandya
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:39 pm    Post subject: Latest from ASCE Smart Brief on DEV. OF SKILLS IN ENGINEERING. Reply with quote

Dear Sefi  Engrs ,
Developing Engineering skills : MORE NEED TO BE DONE :

From : Latest  ( 10th Nov. 2017 ) ASCE SmartBrief :


Commentary: More stringent requirements needed for future  engineers :
The requirements to become anengineer have not changed in decades, and while civil engineering programs are rigorous, additional requirements are needed to prepare students for their professional engineering exams and the complexities of the real world, JonathanPatterson argues. The American Society of Civil Engineers' "Raise theBar" initiative calls for additional education requirements, and a report notes that the "exploding body of science and engineering knowledge cannot be accommodated within the context of the traditional four-year baccalaureate degree ."

WebLink :

TheJohns Hopkins News-Letter (Baltimore) (11/9)  


Regards .
Vasudeo Pandya   P.E.
Structural Engineer




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