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Econf for RERA
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This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Thank Post    www.sefindia.org Forum Index -> Econference on The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Act, 2016 (RERA)
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 11:00 am    Post subject: Econf for RERA Reply with quote

thanks satya paul  On Tue, 30 May 2017 13:44:53 +0530 "N. Prabhakar"  wrote >                   Dear Er. Satyapaul, >  > Your recent statement in the posting under this column that " KOLKATTA STEEL BRIDGE  COLLAPSED,STRUCTURAL ENGINEER WAS NOT RESPONSIBLE" is not correct. On this matter, please read the  technical paper titled "COLLAPSE OF KOLKATA FLYOVER - PRACTITIONER’S PERSPECTIVE" authored by Dr. N.  Subramanian and self, published in 'The Bridge and Structural Engineer', Journal of ING-IABSE, Vol. 47,  Number 1, March 2017. In this paper. the mechanism of collapse has been described which was due to  faulty details of connection between steel girders over a steel pier, for which the structural  consultant is considered to be responsible. >  > This is for your kind information. >  > With best wishes, >  > N. Prabhakar > Chartered Structural Engineer > Vasai (E), Pin 401 208       > >  >  > --

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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 12:00 pm    Post subject: Econf for RERA Reply with quote

sorry sir

we can only focus on MEP services

tejas shah

On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:49 PM, va <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
           Dear All,
We as structural engineers should be careful in signing any agreement with the client or with architect clearly defining our role and responsibility. Structural engineers should be careful in issuing necessary certificates with correct and proper wordings. Engineers should not just sign the certificates under pressure from architects or client without knowing the responsibility.

Hemant Vadalkar
Consulting Engineer Mumbai.

From: sangeeta_wij [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)]
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2017 12:39 PM
To: econf@sefindia.org (econf@sefindia.org)
Subject: [E-CONF] Re: Econf for RERA

I agree with what you have written, one hundred percent, and have experienced similar situations myself; so what can be the possible wayout? I can try sharing some possible solutions as under, at the risk of inviting some adverse feedback:
1. IAStructE has been working hard to press for Engineers’/ Civil Engineers’ Bill and working closely with other Engg Associations and you may wish to strengthen our hands by becoming an active member.However, the success may elude us until the Association with Royal Charter stops scuttling such attempts and joins hands to let the BILL see light of the day!
2. Let’s try and take on a Leadership Role, and act as a Team Lead for a Project, in case the Client insists on a single window consultant.We can engage competent architects and MEP Sub-Consultants and get the work completed. This gives us a better control on the quality of the Project deliverables, timeliness and also gets us a much better fee than while working for an architect.
3. Let’s stop working for a low fees and for all the Bully Architects who are out to extract maximum work from you at minimum fees and endless revisions……without even issuing a formal Work Order.
4. Wherever you are offered work, please try and educate the Client that you should be directly engaged and not through an Architect
5. To rise above the petty competition, you may consider working in a niche area and go for upskilling to specialise in a work which fetches you better work conditions, thus bringing in better job satisfaction.

Best wishes,

Best Regards
Sangeeta Wij
Managing Partner
SD Engineering Consultants LLP
Vice President(North),Indian Association of Structural Engineers,
Fellow and Chartered Engineer, Institution of Engineers
H333 New Rajinder Nagar(Lower Ground Floor),
New Delhi-110060

From: rvshankar143 [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)] ([mailto:forum@sefindia.org ([email]forum@sefindia.org)])
Sent: 19 May 2017 07:08
To: econf@sefindia.org (econf@sefindia.org) (econf@sefindia.org (econf@sefindia.org))
Subject: [E-CONF] Re: Econf for RERA

Dear Members,


Talking about impact of RERA as of now as it is very hot topic these days due to its implementation since may 2017 before this act neither buyer nor developer or promoter were concerned about the commencement along with safety of the project.

Being a structural engineer what I felt and learnt from past years is as..

1. Structure is very important part of any building but except structural engineer no one is concerned about it.
2. Structural engineer is the person who always being treated like “Hmara Thekedaar is se sasta bna dega”
3. Fees of any structural engineer across the country is very low, The reason behind this is the thought that why should we invest such amount by paying to structure engineer, he will put more reinforcement whereas the contractor will do it economical.
4. Due to point 3 always safety of structure is compromised.
5. These days what we see that structure drawings is being issued by architect, what they do ,they copy the structure drawing with same pan and issued them to site.
6. Almost at all location (to architect and to promoters too) it is being treated that structure means hindrance to the services and another creative ideas.
7. Whenever earthquake (like Nepal or Bhuj) comes in every one started talking about the safety of structure and correct design and all but the day passed we all forget about all these and again the cost cutting starts.
8. Awareness regarding structure safety  Awareness to whom when a person doesn’t want to be aware, Let me add some instances…
a. Promoter / Developers are aware about the safety but they don’t implement it because the mind set is “Proper design means putting more reinforcement”. They will invest the money in another non usable thing in building but mind set can’t be changed.
b. Architect (either experienced or new)  if any structural consultant give them their best design, the first response from architect / developer “Reinforcement is higher”. It might be that this incidence only happened with me.
c. End user  almost in 95% case end user doesn’t have any enquiry about the structure design, they always enquire about the esthetics.
d. Contractor  In terms of contractor structural designer is the person who is there in world to just put the extra reinforcement to the structure.
e. A very interesting statement is “In old Delhi buildings are not fallen down till now then nothing will happen to our building too”.
9. Now the point comes to whom we should aware.
10. Why Structure engineers are less paid?
a. Because we haven’t have the unity.
b. I saw many instances one architect will never cross the way of another architect but one structure engineer will definitely cut the way of another ( I am very sorry to state this statement).
c. The reason of point “b” is not due to any personal issues among the engineers, its due to the less fees paid to them, since they have to survive into the market and hence they seek project and hence way are crossed.
d. Also we can’t our pen down  Reason is simple if we stop other will get and our survival will be tough because there is no any structure regulatory bill regarding the “Fees paid to structure engineers”.
e. If we quote high fees to architect, they always says they some one is doing it on very low rate. And this way all the project you will lose. (Reason is same, it’s about unity.
11. Structure engineers in maximum cases are not invited to check the ongoing structure site.
12. No one cares about whether the issued drawings are followed to site or not, because the supervision is in-charge with architect.

Structure engineers are the person who work day and night endlessly to match-up with the time lines of project team with all repetitive changes and if you ask they will say it is the part of the project and you have to accept it and Let’s say if structure engineer changes the issued reinforcement drawing (incase when shuttering and tieing of reinforcements are not done) all person connected to the project whether technical and non technical will reach to you with plenty of FAQ why, how etc etc.
Means structure engineer is bound to incorporate the changes not to make the changes. No one can understand that in a hurry situation we also can make the mistake, as after all we are also a human being.
But as per architect / PMC / developer and their team we will be less paid but we can’t do the changes once we released the drawings (even in non construction commenced situation), but still no one cares that we are very less paid.

Many one may also be in disagreement of above statement, do response in case of agreement and non agreement too.

RERA is not clear about the role of Structure engineers, Our seniors must have to play a vital role to establish a regulatory bill so that at-least the upcoming generation of structure engineers must have some safe hands like architect.

As far as I saw the reaction of buyers / developers /promoters / architects, everyone is looking their benefit from it, but no one is concerned about the safety of structure.
RERA must mention about the role of structure engineer towards the structural safety along with the construction quality supervision of project.

Ravi Shankar
M.tech (Structure)

Structure is bone of world.

Ravi Shankar

Make in India, Sell in Mumbai!

Make in India, Sell in Mumbai!


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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Er. Satyapaul,

           Chartered Structural Engineer, N. Prabhker Sir  is exactly right that Your recent statement in the posting under this column that " KOLKATTA STEEL BRIDGE  COLLAPSED,STRUCTURAL ENGINEER WAS NOT RESPONSIBLE" is not correct.

Please read the below News from Times of India Dated  Apr 5, 2016

Flyover steel was not strong enough, alerted IVRCL engineers:

                 A few months ago, a Research Designs & Standards Organisation (RDSO) engineer was passing under the Vivekananda Road flyover. When he reached his destination, he remarked that the flyover is destined to collapse in the next 2-3 months. He had his reasons. The engineer had been designing and constructing railway bridges for years and one look at the structure was enough for him to realize that sufficient steel had not been utilized.
                "It is not that IVRCL engineers didn't know this. Several experts had pointed out the fact to them. The IVRCL engineers had then said that there are cost constraints and KMDA has approved the design. Over the last several years, the use of steel in bridges and flyovers has come down. There are only 2-3 firms in Kolkata that specialize in designing steel structures. To cut costs, IVRCL did not approach any of them but went to a retired engineer who designed the structure. No consideration has been given in the design to torsion - due to which a structure placed on another tries to turn - or diaphragm. Even the pier cap that people are speaking about is of inadequate strength," a senior engineer from RITES, who had spoken to the RDSO engineer, said.
                 According to him, the depth of the beams is half of what it should be. The entire structure is the same and will have to be scrapped unless IVRCL resorts to something known as retro-fitting. This will require a lot of money. The railways build the largest number of bridges in the country and there are strict guidelines regarding proof testing.
              "According to guidelines, proof testing is to be done by the IITs. In this case, IVRCL got it done from the Jadavpur University construction wing that has no expertise in such matters. Apart from IVRCL officials, the designer, JU approvers and KMDA engineers who cleared the structure should also be held responsible for the collapse and unnecessary loss of life," the RITES engineer said.

Source link:-

Best Wishes,

Er. B. V. Harsoda

N. Prabhakar wrote:
Dear Er. Satyapaul,

Your recent statement in the posting under this column that " KOLKATTA STEEL BRIDGE  COLLAPSED,STRUCTURAL ENGINEER WAS NOT RESPONSIBLE" is not correct.  On this matter, please read the technical paper titled "COLLAPSE OF KOLKATA FLYOVER - PRACTITIONERS PERSPECTIVE" authored by Dr. N. Subramanian and self, published in 'The Bridge and Structural Engineer', Journal of ING-IABSE, Vol. 47, Number 1, March 2017.  In this paper. the mechanism of collapse has been described which was due to faulty details of connection between steel girders over a steel pier, for which the structural consultant is considered to be responsible.

This is for your kind information.

With best wishes,

N. Prabhakar
Chartered Structural Engineer
Vasai (E), Pin 401 208
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:00 am    Post subject: Econf for RERA Reply with quote

unless there is a support from government at center or at state/district level,the structural engineers  will have to face many problems. RERA is a base for fighting for the cause of structural  engineers.every tom,dick and harry opens an office and start calling him self consulting structural  engineer.in case of medical profession,since the the life of human being is involved,therefore  automatically medical profession is regulated.But engineers profession is different.Before we go the  media and News papers for educating masses,it is necessary to get government involved.But Government is  not going to listen at all.Right course of action is to study the draw backs of RERA and file a case in  Supreme court or High court.At that point government is bound to correct and engineers can get their  profession regulated.otherwise forget for ever.making comments and discussing is fruitless.it is just  like story telling to the kids.united we stand and divided we fall. regards satya pal  On Sun, 21 May 2017 12:00:20 +0530 "alpa_sheth"  wrote >                   Er. Ravi Shankar, >  >  >  > You have been raising good points. I think we all should reflect on and discuss the issues​ in  trailing mail​ > . >  >  > Regards > Alpa >  > On 21 May 2017 06:52, "rvshankar143" wrote: >  > [quote]            Respected Members, >  >  > Once read and kindly put your view point also....  > Absolutely there is no doubt regarding " To educate the society for the awareness about the safety of  their building and all those structures where they goes".  > In this regards few questions comes first in the mind..  > 1. What should be the right way to educate the society..  > (1) First of all the education standards in the college and university should be enhanced up-to that  extreme where self awareness comes in the mind of students and when it starts they will definitely  educate their surrounding starting with their own family and friends.  > (2) We (Including all structural engineering associations and seniors) must organize frequent  seminars and get together with and around general peoples to aware them with some demonstrations.  > (3) To educate the bottom level contractors regarding the importance of structure so that they  educate their client regarding the importance of a structure engineer and.  > (4) In Government department there must be specialized engineers like DTP to approve all the design  and drawings for sanctioning purpose too. This will definitely avoid the gap between the sanctioned  arch. drawing and actual built structure drawing.  > 2. What should be the deciding criteria for the selection of competent structural consultant /  engineer.  > As stated by many of respected seniors regarding the qualifications and experience, i am not  going to question about that.  > My point of submission is what is the guideline for experience, one who worked in any  organization for 5 years (With M.tech) and only operated software and one of sudden he started  operating their own practice, is that sufficient to certify any design. I am not saying that all these  experienced guys are less competent, someone among them is definitely outstanding.  > And actually these persons de-grade the pricing / fee and standard of drawing and design too,  to just increase their business.  > It's also our prime responsibility to guide all fresh engineers with a proper manner to  understand the basics of design in practical, we shouldn't force them directly into software's  > Many of our seniors have concerns that after engagement of any fresh engineer, down the line  when year passes once that guys will learn they will leave. But my point is that fresher's have always  a doubt that our boss will never trained my everything , As Responsible senior we must fill that gap  and create a friendly environment by full filling their requirement (genuine).  > Above point will help in two manners, one he will never left you and never even thought to  start their own and secondly a chain of unity will definitely be started.  > I know that above point might be hypothetical for someone of you but lead must be taken.  > 3. What should be the standard criteria for deciding the fees to be quoted and stages of  payments.  > This I will leave to all of my seniors in the forum to come upon with their views.  > The all above can definitely be streamlined after the self awareness, enhancement of education standard  and most importantly Engineers bill clearly stating the way of practice, fees and another guidelines.  > We all talking about the fees and safe hands for us (Structure engineers), Is really Engineers bill /  RERA will safeguard the structure??  > What about the quality of construction along with the use of material and quality of construction, is  this is not concerned to structure engineers (Structure engineer life is also risked on the quality of  construction too).  > Ø We do endless effort to make great and quality design and drawing, but how it can be assured  that the same design is being executed at site, is RERA specify this ??  > Ø We specify the grade of concrete and reinforcement , how many of us ensures that the same is  being used at site. I think 10% of structure engineer among all of us across the country enquires about  the same.  > Ø Let's start with some simple things , like in drawings we specify the hooks and bends. At maximum  site hooks, bends and basic general details are not being followed properly.  > Ø I am not saying that everywhere but at maximum place.  > Ø Let me share an interesting story with all of you, " Sometimes back in one of my project (a small  farm house) where the contractor is finalized by architect and owner, he started the excavation and  further proceeded for work, he does the concreting for foundation in day time when the day temperature  is about 45 degree centigrade and after two day there were surface cracks in the foundation, now we all  know that why this comes up. Now after this client/PMC/architect (even a draft person from architect  team called me up with an statement sir your foundation is failed because there is some crack and you  have not done the proper calculation. I gone to the site and fortunately they had called up the RMC  supplier, now when i asked about the curing and timing of concrete and method of concreting during hot  weather and what contractor said is very surprising, he states that I did the curing after one day and  no special measures has been taken during concreting, then i said that it is not correct method and due  to this the surface cracks developed again he replied that he has been doing the same since years and  doesn't found any difficulty your design has flaw (till now only foundation is casted) the same  statement is supported by architect / owner / and PMC. Since RMC supplier supported my point and then  i safeguarded. while inspection i also fine that there were serious issues with the covers too.  > Ø Now the point comes is RERA specifies any kind of thing about above concerns.  > Ø How structure engineers will be safeguarded from those kind of mishaps.  > Ø Whether structure engineer should only take the responsibility of their design quality or quality  construction too, because any mishaps will firstly call structure engineer and put a blind question  mark of you are the cause.  > Ø Who is going to take responsibility for quality of construction too, because it is truly related  with or (Structure engineer) profession.  > In RERA till now i haven't seen anything which is related to above concern.  > I request all of my seniors that once read this and kindly try to put above concerns to the concerned  committee.  >   > Regards  > Ravi Shankar  > M.Tech (Structure)  > Ph:- +91-9718549278  > >  > On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 9:36 PM, sktrisal forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote: >  >  >       --auto removed-- >       > >  >  > --

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:00 pm    Post subject: Econf for RERA Reply with quote

dear friends, must be at any time, you have got admitted to your near dear for medical surgery in an hospital.Doctors  get a signature on written/printed proforma that in case of any problem they are not legally  responsible. why Engineers shall be responsible.DESIGNER is not aware about the quality of material used.skills of  engineers employed on the job.All structural design submitted shall be checked by second party.only  hand calculations are to be checked.software use is at the discretion of proof design checker.No  structural engineer/designer shall give the clear certificate.All design subject to safety on the  condition that implemented by an experienced engineer at site conforming to drawings signed by  structural design engineer. regards satya pal On Sun, 21 May 2017 10:08:41 +0530 "gattanianil"  wrote >                   Dear All  >  >  > Its really sorry state of affairs for Engineers. It is our own doing. Basically Engineers are very  intellectual, disciplined and ethical and responsible. We imagine problems and then go on discussing on  them because we love discussions and it caters to our intellect. Nowhere it is written that in defect  period of 5 years Engineers have to compensate. But we are the person planting this seed in developers  mind. It is we and our brothers who have planted that cancerous seed of consumption of steel on sq. ft  basis in Architect's and developers mind. Till so many decades down the line we could not erase this  mindset.We actually want to have seminars, discussions just to whet our intellect and we really are not  bothered for the upliftment of engineering fraternity. We just think there are less opportunities down  the line and one upmanship is required to snatch the job.This is just our insecure mindset. Engineers  whether they are in constuction line or in designing are always lowly paid because WE do not respect  each others and also our profession and WE always find rather love to find fault of our fellow  engineers. On the other hand see the magnamanous approach of Architects. They maintain dignity. They  never are on fault finding mode. Hence they are not only nicely paid but they also get the due respect.  We always love to comment on the design of our fellow Engineers . It is WE who have put pressures on  ourselves by appointing proof checking concept, high rise committee etc. Just cross your hearts and you  will know the behind agenda behind all these.  > We are not ready to accept and do research on why the buldings designed in yesteryears survived all the  impacts, natural calamities and the recent buldings fail from functional workability point of view.  > There are many opportunities and luckily we are in TOP 5% of intellectual community. Lets just change  the mindset and give more respect to our profession alongwith our fellow brothers. Let things and life  flow. Do not over analyse the situation.  > RERA is a new concept brought by Govt. Nobody knows how it will progress. Builders are also skeptic  about it. Regulatory authorities are also not very much clear. In coming months things will unfold and  accordingly we have to go on changing ourselves but with POSITIVE MINDSET.  >  >  > Regards  >  >  > anil gattani  >  > From: alpa_sheth  > Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2017 2:49 PM > To: econf@sefindia.org > Subject: [E-CONF] Re: Econf for RERA  >  > Dear All:  >  >  > a) Just because we have a 5 year defect liability period does not absolve us from structural stability  responsibility for 50 years or whatever is the life of structure. The 5 years period is for making good  of the defect by developer (who may want to get it reimbursed form structural engineer) which could be  something as small as a crack in the ceiling plaster- Can you imagine the number of arguments we will  all be getting into, trying to explain to a homeowner that a particular crack is a plaster crack and  not a structural one?. >  >  > b) Let us try to make a model contract for structural engineers. ISSE hss done some wonderful work in  the past on this and I request Hemant or anyone from ISEE or anyone for that matter to take the lead  and make a first cut draft of a revised contract in light of RERA. >  >  > c) I for one do not see the Engineer's Bill happening any time soon. But we could push for a  Professional Structural Engineering Licensing system.  >  >  > best regards, > Alpa  >  >  > best regards, > Alpa Sheth > >  > VMS Consultants Pvt Ltd > 83/84 Sakhar Bhavan, 230 Nariman Point > Mumbai 400021 Tel: 91-22-61725200 > www.vakilmehtasheth.com  > VMS Consultants Private Limited > www.vakilmehtasheth.com > Copyright 2017.VMS Consultants Pvt. Ltd. 83/84 Sakhar Bhavan, 230 Nariman Point Mumbai-400 021, CIN  No. U74140MH1978PTC020578 >  >  >  >  >  >  >  >  >  >  >  >  >  >  >  > On Sat, May 20, 2017 at 7:49 PM, va forum@sefindia.org)> wrote: > --auto removed-- >       > >  >  > --

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