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Implementation of quality standards and practices must.

 
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prof.arc
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 703

PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:48 am    Post subject: Implementation of quality standards and practices must. Reply with quote

We are all in agreement that the profession knows quite a lot about "durability"

but we are helpless to overcome "corruption" in practice in a majority of cases for actual implementation of quality
It will be worthwhile to know which STATE/S are less corrupt in execution of quality.
The consumer is also at fault in demanding cheap construction whereas they may lavish in false finishings


I hope Dr. NS would highlight the practices in USA where quality is more stringently adhered to.


We must be proud that Highest Quality of construction is maintained in Nuclear Power Plants in India
There must be several more Industries where quality is the main "mantra"


One of the reasons why agencies get away with poor quality is that the effects of poor quality are seen only long term
and blamed on poor maintenance rather than the initial faulty quality of construction
 
ARC


ps: tamil nadu - chennai is worst in implementation of traffic rules in so far as Auto-Rickshaws are concerned.
even though rules exist on paper, no auto uses the dummy fare meter
this state of wilful ignoring of rules permeates in construction industry



On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:29 PM, admin <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
     
[edited]
     Recently Association of Consulting Civil Engineers (India) Bangalore Centre conducted a three day National Seminar and Exhibition on Recent Developments in Repair, Rehabilitation and Retrofitting. Eminent consultants shared their experiences with the civil engineering community. It was very clear that due to fast track construction, new materials, design deficiencies, negligence, unskilled manpower, lack of will power to implement quality construction practices and standards, many of the structures have durability issues. The problems connected with durability of structures are increasing as we claim that we are progressing. In this context the efforts by SEFI, having an e-conference on ‘Crucial issues in respect of durability of Concrete’ moderated by Dr N Subramanian and Mr. Vijay Kulkarni will be very useful in understanding the behaviour of concrete and to handle concrete in a better way.



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Dr. N. Subramanian
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Implementation of quality standards and practices must. Reply with quote

Dear Prof. ARC,

Though I am not working here, I know a few things.

First one can not practice without a certification- this applies to Engineer, plumber, Mason, carpenter, or even the person who does some petty repairs. After B.S. (BE in India), the Engineer has to pass P.E. exam to sign any legal document-drawings, specifications, etc. Masons should also get certification (see http://certification.masoncontractors.org/). In that way there is at least some kind of professionalism. In spite of all these things, mistakes do happen- see for example http://failures.wikispaces.com/Concrete+System+Collapses+%26+Failures+During+Construction#Case%20Studies:--Harbour%20Cay%20Condominium:%20March%201981

Second, the city corporation is very strict on the safety. For example when we installed a deck in our house (for those who are not aware of the term Deck- see http://www.decksusa.com/), the contractor dug a hole for the foundation- the city official came, checked the depth, soil etc and gave permission. After the job was completed, again they came and certified for the thickness of the post/column(wooden) and the stability. A few years ago they revised the permissible size of post(column) also. If they are so strict for such a small structure, you can imagine the case for bigger structures. Surprisingly such a checking mechanism is there in India too but it is not implemented or exercised to extract money from the owner/contractor!  

Maintenance of any structure is absolutely important and is neglected in many countries. To my knowledge Singapore has very strict laws for maintenance (see http://www.bca.gov.sg/BMSM/bmsma.html and http://www.buildingmgt.gov.hk/file_manager/en/documents/5.pdf). I believe if a private building looks  ugly the Govt will do the maintenance and collect the fee from the owner. That is the reason why all the buildings look great in Singapore.

Regards
NS

prof.arc wrote:
We are all in agreement that the profession knows quite a lot about "durability"

but we are helpless to overcome "corruption" in practice in a majority of cases for actual implementation of quality
It will be worthwhile to know which STATE/S are less corrupt in execution of quality.
The consumer is also at fault in demanding cheap construction whereas they may lavish in false finishings


I hope Dr. NS would highlight the practices in USA where quality is more stringently adhered to.


We must be proud that Highest Quality of construction is maintained in Nuclear Power Plants in India
There must be several more Industries where quality is the main "mantra"


One of the reasons why agencies get away with poor quality is that the effects of poor quality are seen only long term
and blamed on poor maintenance rather than the initial faulty quality of construction

ARC


ps: tamil nadu - chennai is worst in implementation of traffic rules in so far as Auto-Rickshaws are concerned.
even though rules exist on paper, no auto uses the dummy fare meter
this state of wilful ignoring of rules permeates in construction industry



On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:29 PM, admin <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
       
[edited]
     Recently Association of Consulting Civil Engineers (India) Bangalore Centre conducted a three day National Seminar and Exhibition on Recent Developments in Repair, Rehabilitation and Retrofitting. Eminent consultants shared their experiences with the civil engineering community. It was very clear that due to fast track construction, new materials, design deficiencies, negligence, unskilled manpower, lack of will power to implement quality construction practices and standards, many of the structures have durability issues. The problems connected with durability of structures are increasing as we claim that we are progressing. In this context the efforts by SEFI, having an e-conference on ‘Crucial issues in respect of durability of Concrete’ moderated by Dr N Subramanian and Mr. Vijay Kulkarni will be very useful in understanding the behaviour of concrete and to handle concrete in a better way.



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svenkatesan
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Implementation of quality standards and practices must. Reply with quote

I'm site man, put up 13 years in L&T-ECC and 13 Years in Singapore.The overall condition of the construction industry in India really fearsome for me esp when I happened to see such pics(Attached). I was explained its required for seismic load. I didn't see this type of reinf congestion even in Singapore.
There are so many flaws in every department related to construction industry.
I am passing all these discussion to my GMT/GET's and explain them what are the contents.
Thanks for all who are sharing their knowledge in this forum.

S. Kumar


Subject: [ECONF] Re: Implementation of quality standards and practices must.
From: forum@sefindia.org
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 21:44:48 +0530
To: econf@sefindia.org

--             Dear Prof. ARC,

Though I am not working here, I know a few things.

First one can not practice without a certification- this applies to Engineer, plumber, Mason, carpenter, or even the person who does some petty repairs. After B.S. (BE in India), the Engineer has to pass P.E. exam to sign any legal document-drawings, specifications, etc. Masons should also get certification (see http://certification.masoncontractors.org/). In that way there is at least some kind of professionalism. In spite of all these mistakes happen- see for example http://failures.wikispaces.com/Concrete+System+Collapses+%26+Failures+During+Construction#Case%20Studies:--Harbour%20Cay%20Condominium:%20March%201981

Second, the city corporation is very strict on the safety. For example when we installed a deck in our house (for those who are not aware of the term Deck- see http://www.decksusa.com/), the contractor dug a hole for the foundation- the city official came, checked the depth, soil etc and gave permission. After the job was completed, again they came and certified for the thickness of the post/column(wooden) and the stability. A few years ago they revised the permissible size of post(column) also. If they are so strict for such a small structure, you can imagine the case for bigger structures. Surprisingly such a checking mechanism is there in India too but it is not implemented or exercised to extract money from the owner/contractor!

Maintenance of any structure is absolutely important and is neglected in many countries. To my knowledge Singapore has very strict laws for maintenance (see http://www.bca.gov.sg/BMSM/bmsma.html and http://www.buildingmgt.gov.hk/file_manager/en/documents/5.pdf). I believe if a private building looks ugly the Govt will do the maintenance and collect the fee from the owner. That is the reason why all the buildings look great in Singapore.

Regards
NS

      prof.arc wrote:                We are all in agreement that the profession knows quite a lot about "durability"

but we are helpless to overcome "corruption" in practice in a majority of cases for actual implementation of quality
It will be worthwhile to know which STATE/S are less corrupt in execution of quality.
The consumer is also at fault in demanding cheap construction whereas they may lavish in false finishings


I hope Dr. NS would highlight the practices in USA where quality is more stringently adhered to.


We must be proud that Highest Quality of construction is maintained in Nuclear Power Plants in India
There must be several more Industries where quality is the main "mantra"


One of the reasons why agencies get away with poor quality is that the effects of poor quality are seen only long term
and blamed on poor maintenance rather than the initial faulty quality of construction

ARC


ps: tamil nadu - chennai is worst in implementation of traffic rules in so far as Auto-Rickshaws are concerned.
even though rules exist on paper, no auto uses the dummy fare meter
this state of wilful ignoring of rules permeates in construction industry



On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:29 PM, admin forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
      --auto removed--

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:13 am    Post subject: Implementation of quality standards and practices must. Reply with quote

Dr N Subramanian has highlighted the quality checks built into the civil engineering work in other countries and perhaps all that may not available here in India.  

The on going discussions on Concrete Technology, so far has immensely benefitted me. To complete the subject. May I request the moderator / members to initiate a discussion on the latest post execution quality checks that should be incorporated in the concrete structures covering important applications to ensure that the status of quality achieved is known in advance.

Coverage may be on life of structures, strength including earthquake resistance, regulations etc..

Thanks & Regards,

M S Khan  



From: "Dr N. Subramanian" <forum@sefindia.org>
To: econf@sefindia.org,  
Date: 03/01/2012 09:48 PM
Subject: [ECONF] Re: Implementation of quality standards and practices must.



Dear Prof. ARC,

Though I am not working here, I know a few things.

First one can not practice without a certification- this applies to Engineer, plumber, Mason, carpenter, or even the person who does some petty repairs. After B.S. (BE in India), the Engineer has to pass P.E. exam to sign any legal document-drawings, specifications, etc. Masons should also get certification (see http://certification.masoncontractors.org/). In that way there is at least some kind of professionalism. In spite of all these mistakes happen- see for example http://failures.wikispaces.com/Concrete+System+Collapses+%26+Failures+During+Construction#Case%20Studies:--Harbour%20Cay%20Condominium:%20March%201981

Second, the city corporation is very strict on the safety. For example when we installed a deck in our house (for those who are not aware of the term Deck- see http://www.decksusa.com/), the contractor dug a hole for the foundation- the city official came, checked the depth, soil etc and gave permission. After the job was completed, again they came and certified for the thickness of the post/column(wooden) and the stability. A few years ago they revised the permissible size of post(column) also. If they are so strict for such a small structure, you can imagine the case for bigger structures. Surprisingly such a checking mechanism is there in India too but it is not implemented or exercised to extract money from the owner/contractor!

Maintenance of any structure is absolutely important and is neglected in many countries. To my knowledge Singapore has very strict laws for maintenance (see http://www.bca.gov.sg/BMSM/bmsma.html and http://www.buildingmgt.gov.hk/file_manager/en/documents/5.pdf). I believe if a private building looks ugly the Govt will do the maintenance and collect the fee from the owner. That is the reason why all the buildings look great in Singapore.

Regards
NS
prof.arc wrote:  We are all in agreement that the profession knows quite a lot about "durability"

but we are helpless to overcome "corruption" in practice in a majority of cases for actual implementation of quality
It will be worthwhile to know which STATE/S are less corrupt in execution of quality.
The consumer is also at fault in demanding cheap construction whereas they may lavish in false finishings


I hope Dr. NS would highlight the practices in USA where quality is more stringently adhered to.


We must be proud that Highest Quality of construction is maintained in Nuclear Power Plants in India
There must be several more Industries where quality is the main "mantra"


One of the reasons why agencies get away with poor quality is that the effects of poor quality are seen only long term
and blamed on poor maintenance rather than the initial faulty quality of construction

ARC


ps: tamil nadu - chennai is worst in implementation of traffic rules in so far as Auto-Rickshaws are concerned.
even though rules exist on paper, no auto uses the dummy fare meter
this state of wilful ignoring of rules permeates in construction industry



On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:29 PM, admin forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
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bsec
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:14 am    Post subject: Implementation of quality standards and practices must. Reply with quote

Dear All,

The problem the civil engineering community at large faces, causing poor quality of work at site which eventuality leads to durability problems are following in my view :

<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>Attitude :  

<![if !supportLists]>a) <![endif]>Everyone thinks that he knows the maximum. Ego and one-upmanship prevails over sound technical decisions in discussions. Consultants are not excluded from this disease.  
<![if !supportLists]>b) <![endif]>It is a common to justify non-conforming works with following phrases :  
<![if !supportLists]>- <![endif]>Chalta Hai.
<![if !supportLists]>- <![endif]>Consultant is bookish.
<![if !supportLists]>- <![endif]>There is a difference between theory & practice.

<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>Lack of Knowledge :  

<![if !supportLists]>a) <![endif]>Practicing Engineers do not have the habit of reading technical journals. They only learn by Experience. Consultants are no exceptions.
<![if !supportLists]>b) <![endif]>Very few Engineers are lucky to be associated with professionals / projects which can provide good professional experience.

<![if !supportLists]>3. <![endif]>Engineers are demoralized group with low morale & low self esteem :  

<![if !supportLists]>a) <![endif]>It is a common sight to see that Bureaucrats are calling the shots. Engineers have become subservient to the Bureaucrats. Dr Sreedharan (Ex-DMRC) was an exceptional person in this regard and that is why he is so respected in the profession.
<![if !supportLists]>b) <![endif]>There are many instances where the top Bureaucrats come to site and take even minor engineering decisions which at times are simply blunders. I have seen even Chief Engineers standing as a mute spectator in such situations.  

<![if !supportLists]>4. <![endif]>There are many other attributes. To be honest, I am not very optimistic that these problems will go overnight. These are largely societal issues and will take time to go.  

With best wishes

Alok Bhowmick

From: prof.arc [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 7:25 AM
To: econf@sefindia.org
Subject: [ECONF] Re: Implementation of quality standards and practices must.



We are all in agreement that the profession knows quite a lot about "durability"

but we are helpless to overcome "corruption" in practice in a majority of cases for actual implementation of quality
It will be worthwhile to know which STATE/S are less corrupt in execution of quality.
The consumer is also at fault in demanding cheap construction whereas they may lavish in false finishings


I hope Dr. NS would highlight the practices in USA where quality is more stringently adhered to.


We must be proud that Highest Quality of construction is maintained in Nuclear Power Plants in India
There must be several more Industries where quality is the main "mantra"


One of the reasons why agencies get away with poor quality is that the effects of poor quality are seen only long term
and blamed on poor maintenance rather than the initial faulty quality of construction

ARC


ps: tamil nadu - chennai is worst in implementation of traffic rules in so far as Auto-Rickshaws are concerned.
even though rules exist on paper, no auto uses the dummy fare meter
this state of wilful ignoring of rules permeates in construction industry



On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:29 PM, admin forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:    
--auto removed--

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JVCSNL
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear All,

I think enough is said about what we are, our systems, our practices.  From many posts, I find that engineer thinks the contractors and their labour are not knowledgeable, the contractor and their labours think, engineers are idiots.  I think, this prevails everywhere, little or more.

Probably, this has gone in to our blood, culture and acceptance zone.  We are waiting for someone to change all these.  

I happened to have seen some technical material on ASR effects in various US DOTs.  The safety of people and resources comes first in most of the developed countries.  They are ready to spend enough on these subjects.

May be some construction experience engineers can share good things they have witnessed when they were concerned about the concrete durability.  This will initiate a positive beginning of the discussion and may be more youth will be inclined to attempt changing some practices.  Giving examples of bad works, corruption, bad practices etc will inject directly to the young generation.  Let us not contaminate their thoughts by painting a gloomy picture.  

I remember a case, when a critical vibratory equipment foundation concreting was going on, the concrete arrived at site was like water.  I remember that the engineer had tough time after rejection and he did not deviated from demanding a good concrete.  Probably, he had to take pains to ensure good quality.  Later, this event created a good impact on his fellow engineers and also on contractor.  

Another example is for concrete cover.  In begining of my career, I was designing a structure for desalination unit of water treatment system.  The notes for cover was as usual and being new in the field, I did not noticed.  My superior, advised to increase the cover of grade beams little more, as grade beams (despite all protections) were likely to get affected due to salty water.  

More examples and methods will largely benefit our fraternity.  

This mail is not in response to individual posts, but in general, I felt that we need to discuss the topics which can be implemented by our good selves.

Since, Durability of concrete is not much debated and educated topic in our country, this platform can really help the industry by solid suggestions.  In many cases little attention will yield best results.

Regards,

Jignesh V Chokshi
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bsec
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject: Implementation of quality standards and practices must. Reply with quote

Dear Mr Jignesh V Choksi,

Your point well taken. I think the negativity in our system has been discussed enough. Let is move forward.  

Let me share some of my good experience with Konkan Railway Project way back in 1991-93 on quality. This was a 760 Km long project along west coast having innumerable number of bridges, tunnels, high embankments, cuttings ….etc.  

One good system of quality assurance introduced at that time by Mr E Sreedharan (He was MD of KRCL) was 3rd party quality surveillance. A team of Consultant was engaged by KRCL, who was reporting directly to their Director (Technical) at HO at Mumbai on a weekly and monthly basis. They are also to interact with the Chief Engineer, KRCL for respective sites to inform their findings on a regular basis.  

This was a skeletal team of Engineers, spread over the entire stretch of 760 Km. A group of 8 Engineers (experience varying from 30+ to 5+) were deputed for a length of about 100 Km each, along the route. Total of about 60-65 Engineers were involved for the entire stretch of 760 Km. The role of quality surveillance team was essentially :

<![if !supportLists]>a) <![endif]>To evolve a procedure for effective quality control at site
<![if !supportLists]>b) <![endif]>To prepare a quality manual which set standards for documentation
<![if !supportLists]>c) <![endif]>To check the installed field laboratory and to guide KRCL in improving the laboratory
<![if !supportLists]>d) <![endif]>To check mix design, batching and concreting at site regularly.
<![if !supportLists]>e) <![endif]>To analyse the field data and to to identify the emerging trends and degree of control at site
<![if !supportLists]>f) <![endif]>To train the field staff of KRCL for specific quality control checks.  

The presence of this QS team at project site itself was good enough reason for the contractors as well as KRCL team to be alert at site on quality issues. Any adverse comments in these independent quality reports led to calling for explanation to the Chief Engineer, KRCL, from the Head Office. In case of any serious non-conformance if observed at site, HO used to even question the QS team.  

I think this system worked well for KRCL, especially since the KRCL site supervisors, assistant engineers / technical supervisors were very young and did not have any previous exposure on this type of works

Best Wishes

Alok Bhowmick







From: JVCSNL [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 2:52 PM
To: econf@sefindia.org
Subject: [ECONF] Re: Implementation of quality standards and practices must.



Dear All,

I think enough is said about what we are, our systems, our practices. From many posts, I find that engineer thinks the contractors and their labour are not knowledgeable, the contractor and their labours think, engineers are idiots. I think, this prevails everywhere, little or more.

Probably, this has gone in to our blood, culture and acceptance zone. We are waiting for someone to change all these.

I happened to have seen some technical material on ASR effects in various US DOTs. The safety of people and resources comes first in most of the developed countries. They are ready to spend enough on these subjects.

May be some construction experience engineers can share good things they have witnessed when they were concerned about the concrete durability. This will initiate a positive beginning of the discussion and may be more youth will be inclined to attempt changing some practices. Giving examples of bad works, corruption, bad practices etc will inject directly to the young generation. Let us not contaminate their thoughts by painting a gloomy picture.

I remember a case, when a critical vibratory equipment foundation concreting was going on, the concrete arrived at site was like water. I remember that the engineer had tough time after rejection and he did not deviated from demanding a good concrete. Probably, he had to take pains to ensure good quality. Later, this event created a good impact on his fellow engineers and also on contractor.

Another example is for concrete cover. In begining of my career, I was designing a structure for desalination unit of water treatment system. The notes for cover was as usual and being new in the field, I did not noticed. My superior, advised to increase the cover of grade beams little more, as grade beams (despite all protections) were likely to get affected due to salty water.

More examples and methods will largely benefit our fraternity.

This mail is not in response to individual posts, but in general, I felt that we need to discuss the topics which can be implemented by our good selves.

Since, Durability of concrete is not much debated and educated topic in our country, this platform can really help the industry by solid suggestions. In many cases little attention will yield best results.

Regards,

Jignesh V Chokshi

Posted via Email
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Dr. N. Subramanian
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Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 5319
Location: Gaithersburg, MD, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Implementation of quality standards and practices must. Reply with quote

Well said Er Alok! I appreciate each and every point, especially "
There are many instances where the top Bureaucrats come to site and take even minor engineering decisions which at times are simply blunders. I have seen even Chief Engineers standing as a mute spectator in such situations"
.

In this connection, I wish to state that Chief Engineers (CE) might have forgotten what they learnt as after the grade of Executive Engineer(EE), they are not involved in the design and are doing administration work only-of course there may be a few exceptions. I am also reminded of a joke- I will state it briefly here:

At a site, the contractor was told by JE that the AE is coming for inspection. The AE came and told the contractor to add a few bars at some specified locations and the contractor obliged. After a few days the EE came and he also did the same thing- again the contractor obliged. Similar thing happened when the SE came.

After a few days when the concreting was to happen, the JE informed the contractor that the CE is going to come and visit the site. On hearing that the contractor took his cycle and was about to leave the site. The JE was surprised and asked him what is the matter. The contractor replied "Sir, I obliged when other senior officers came. But now I do not have any steel bars left at site. I am afraid that the CE may ask my cycle to be put as reinforcement- that is why I am running with the cycle!"

Joke apart, Civil Engineering is the only field where everyone thinks that he /she knows everything. the other day one of the boys known to me told that he was designing buildings- I knew that he was a Diploma holder and not a bright student and hence asked him what kinds of buildings he is designing. It turned out  he is making only AutoCad drawings!

Regards
NS

bsec wrote:
Dear All,

The problem the civil engineering community at large faces, causing poor quality of work at site which eventuality leads to durability problems are following in my view :

<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>Attitude :  

<![if !supportLists]>a) <![endif]>Everyone thinks that he knows the maximum. Ego and one-upmanship prevails over sound technical decisions in discussions. Consultants are not excluded from this disease.  
<![if !supportLists]>b) <![endif]>It is a common to justify non-conforming works with following phrases :  
<![if !supportLists]>- <![endif]>Chalta Hai.
<![if !supportLists]>- <![endif]>Consultant is bookish.
<![if !supportLists]>- <![endif]>There is a difference between theory & practice.

<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>Lack of Knowledge :  

<![if !supportLists]>a) <![endif]>Practicing Engineers do not have the habit of reading technical journals. They only learn by Experience. Consultants are no exceptions.
<![if !supportLists]>b) <![endif]>Very few Engineers are lucky to be associated with professionals / projects which can provide good professional experience.

<![if !supportLists]>3. <![endif]>Engineers are demoralized group with low morale & low self esteem :  

<![if !supportLists]>a) <![endif]>It is a common sight to see that Bureaucrats are calling the shots. Engineers have become subservient to the Bureaucrats. Dr Sreedharan (Ex-DMRC) was an exceptional person in this regard and that is why he is so respected in the profession.
<![if !supportLists]>b) <![endif]>There are many instances where the top Bureaucrats come to site and take even minor engineering decisions which at times are simply blunders. I have seen even Chief Engineers standing as a mute spectator in such situations.  

<![if !supportLists]>4. <![endif]>There are many other attributes. To be honest, I am not very optimistic that these problems will go overnight. These are largely societal issues and will take time to go.  

With best wishes

Alok Bhowmick

From: prof.arc [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 7:25 AM
To: econf@sefindia.org
Subject: [ECONF] Re: Implementation of quality standards and practices must.



We are all in agreement that the profession knows quite a lot about "durability"

but we are helpless to overcome "corruption" in practice in a majority of cases for actual implementation of quality
It will be worthwhile to know which STATE/S are less corrupt in execution of quality.
The consumer is also at fault in demanding cheap construction whereas they may lavish in false finishings


I hope Dr. NS would highlight the practices in USA where quality is more stringently adhered to.


We must be proud that Highest Quality of construction is maintained in Nuclear Power Plants in India
There must be several more Industries where quality is the main "mantra"


One of the reasons why agencies get away with poor quality is that the effects of poor quality are seen only long term
and blamed on poor maintenance rather than the initial faulty quality of construction

ARC


ps: tamil nadu - chennai is worst in implementation of traffic rules in so far as Auto-Rickshaws are concerned.
even though rules exist on paper, no auto uses the dummy fare meter
this state of wilful ignoring of rules permeates in construction industry



On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:29 PM, admin forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:     
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drferozkottamal
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:04 am    Post subject: Implementation of quality standards and practices must. Reply with quote

Brilliant, Er. Alok

On 2 March 2012 19:27, Dr N. Subramanian <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
  Well said Er Alok! I appreciate each and every point, especially "
There are many instances where the top Bureaucrats come to site and take even minor engineering decisions which at times are simply blunders. I have seen even Chief Engineers standing as a mute spectator in such situations"
.


In this connection, I wish to state that Chief Engineers (CE) might have forgotten what they learnt as after the grade of Executive Engineer(EE), they are not involved in the design and are doing administration work only-of course there may be a few exceptions. I am also reminded of a joke- I will state it briefly here:

At a site, the contractor was told by JE that the AE is coming for inspection. The AE came and told the contractor to add a few bars at some specified locations and the contractor obliged. After a few days the EE came and he also did the same thing- again the contractor obliged. Similar thing happened when the SE came.

After a few days when the concreting was to happen, the JE informed the contractor that the CE is going to come and visit the site. On hearing that the contractor took his cycle and was about to leave the site. The JE was surprised and asked him what is the matter. The contractor replied "Sir, I obliged when other senior officers came. But now I do not have any steel bars left at site. I am afraid that the CE may ask my cycle to be put as reinforcement- that is why I am running with the cycle!"

Joke apart, Civil Engineering is the only field where everyone thinks that he /she knows everything. the other day one of the boys known to me told that he was designing buildings- I knew that he was a Diploma holder and not a bright student and hence asked him what kinds of buildings he is designing. It turned out he is making only AutoCad drawings!

Regards
NS

bsec wrote:   Dear All,

The problem the civil engineering community at large faces, causing poor quality of work at site which eventuality leads to durability problems are following in my view :

1. Attitude :

a) Everyone thinks that he knows the maximum. Ego and one-upmanship prevails over sound technical decisions in discussions. Consultants are not excluded from this disease.
b) It is a common to justify non-conforming works with following phrases :
- Chalta Hai.
- Consultant is bookish.
- There is a difference between theory & practice.

2. Lack of Knowledge :

a) Practicing Engineers do not have the habit of reading technical journals. They only learn by Experience. Consultants are no exceptions.
b) Very few Engineers are lucky to be associated with professionals / projects which can provide good professional experience.

3. Engineers are demoralized group with low morale & low self esteem :

a) It is a common sight to see that Bureaucrats are calling the shots. Engineers have become subservient to the Bureaucrats. Dr Sreedharan (Ex-DMRC) was an exceptional person in this regard and that is why he is so respected in the profession.
b) There are many instances where the top Bureaucrats come to site and take even minor engineering decisions which at times are simply blunders. I have seen even Chief Engineers standing as a mute spectator in such situations.

4. There are many other attributes. To be honest, I am not very optimistic that these problems will go overnight. These are largely societal issues and will take time to go.

With best wishes

Alok Bhowmick

From: prof.arc [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)]
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 7:25 AM

To: econf@sefindia.org (econf@sefindia.org)
Subject: [ECONF] Re: Implementation of quality standards and practices must.




We are all in agreement that the profession knows quite a lot about "durability"

but we are helpless to overcome "corruption" in practice in a majority of cases for actual implementation of quality
It will be worthwhile to know which STATE/S are less corrupt in execution of quality.
The consumer is also at fault in demanding cheap construction whereas they may lavish in false finishings


I hope Dr. NS would highlight the practices in USA where quality is more stringently adhered to.


We must be proud that Highest Quality of construction is maintained in Nuclear Power Plants in India
There must be several more Industries where quality is the main "mantra"


One of the reasons why agencies get away with poor quality is that the effects of poor quality are seen only long term
and blamed on poor maintenance rather than the initial faulty quality of construction

ARC


ps: tamil nadu - chennai is worst in implementation of traffic rules in so far as Auto-Rickshaws are concerned.
even though rules exist on paper, no auto uses the dummy fare meter
this state of wilful ignoring of rules permeates in construction industry



On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:29 PM, admin forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))> wrote:

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veena_v
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:24 pm    Post subject: Implementation of quality standards and practices must. Reply with quote

sir please can you send me some details or brief description about partial replacement of cement by coconut husk ash,corn cob ash and peanut shell ash. 
On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 9:57 PM, Dr N. Subramanian <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Well said Er Alok! I appreciate each and every point, especially "
There are many instances where the top Bureaucrats come to site and take even minor engineering decisions which at times are simply blunders. I have seen even Chief Engineers standing as a mute spectator in such situations"
.


In this connection, I wish to state that Chief Engineers (CE) might have forgotten what they learnt as after the grade of Executive Engineer(EE), they are not involved in the design and are doing administration work only-of course there may be a few exceptions. I am also reminded of a joke- I will state it briefly here:

At a site, the contractor was told by JE that the AE is coming for inspection. The AE came and told the contractor to add a few bars at some specified locations and the contractor obliged. After a few days the EE came and he also did the same thing- again the contractor obliged. Similar thing happened when the SE came.

After a few days when the concreting was to happen, the JE informed the contractor that the CE is going to come and visit the site. On hearing that the contractor took his cycle and was about to leave the site. The JE was surprised and asked him what is the matter. The contractor replied "Sir, I obliged when other senior officers came. But now I do not have any steel bars left at site. I am afraid that the CE may ask my cycle to be put as reinforcement- that is why I am running with the cycle!"

Joke apart, Civil Engineering is the only field where everyone thinks that he /she knows everything. the other day one of the boys known to me told that he was designing buildings- I knew that he was a Diploma holder and not a bright student and hence asked him what kinds of buildings he is designing. It turned out he is making only AutoCad drawings!

Regards
NS

      bsec wrote:                Dear All,

The problem the civil engineering community at large faces, causing poor quality of work at site which eventuality leads to durability problems are following in my view :

1. Attitude :

a) Everyone thinks that he knows the maximum. Ego and one-upmanship prevails over sound technical decisions in discussions. Consultants are not excluded from this disease.
b) It is a common to justify non-conforming works with following phrases :
- Chalta Hai.  
- Consultant is bookish.  
- There is a difference between theory & practice.  

2. Lack of Knowledge :

a) Practicing Engineers do not have the habit of reading technical journals. They only learn by Experience. Consultants are no exceptions.
b) Very few Engineers are lucky to be associated with professionals / projects which can provide good professional experience.

3. Engineers are demoralized group with low morale & low self esteem :

a) It is a common sight to see that Bureaucrats are calling the shots. Engineers have become subservient to the Bureaucrats. Dr Sreedharan (Ex-DMRC) was an exceptional person in this regard and that is why he is so respected in the profession.
b) There are many instances where the top Bureaucrats come to site and take even minor engineering decisions which at times are simply blunders. I have seen even Chief Engineers standing as a mute spectator in such situations.

4. There are many other attributes. To be honest, I am not very optimistic that these problems will go overnight. These are largely societal issues and will take time to go.

With best wishes

Alok Bhowmick

From: prof.arc [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)]
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 7:25 AM

To: econf@sefindia.org (econf@sefindia.org)
Subject: [ECONF] Re: Implementation of quality standards and practices must.




We are all in agreement that the profession knows quite a lot about "durability"

but we are helpless to overcome "corruption" in practice in a majority of cases for actual implementation of quality
It will be worthwhile to know which STATE/S are less corrupt in execution of quality.
The consumer is also at fault in demanding cheap construction whereas they may lavish in false finishings


I hope Dr. NS would highlight the practices in USA where quality is more stringently adhered to.


We must be proud that Highest Quality of construction is maintained in Nuclear Power Plants in India
There must be several more Industries where quality is the main "mantra"


One of the reasons why agencies get away with poor quality is that the effects of poor quality are seen only long term
and blamed on poor maintenance rather than the initial faulty quality of construction

ARC


ps: tamil nadu - chennai is worst in implementation of traffic rules in so far as Auto-Rickshaws are concerned.
even though rules exist on paper, no auto uses the dummy fare meter
this state of wilful ignoring of rules permeates in construction industry




On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 8:29 PM, admin forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))> wrote:     
--auto removed--
     


     



     


sir please can you send me some details or brief description about partial replacement of cement by coconut husk ash,corn cob ash and peanut shell ash. 

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