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Non-Technical Issues

 
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Thank Post    www.sefindia.org Forum Index -> E-conference on Durability of Concrete - Feb 27 to March 11 - 2012
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bijay sarkar
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Non-Technical Issues Reply with quote

SOME NON-TECHNICAL ISSUES WHICH ARE ALSO FELT IMPORTANT FOR QUALITY CONTROL :

Earlier in late 80’s when I started my working life in field, I remember one Thermal Power Project which was completed in 12-14 years inclusive of acquisition of land being in the tune of 2500 acres. At present, in a Thermal Power Plant of 2 x 500 MW capacity requires about 6000 Crores of investment and about 1400 acres of land with a compact layout. This huge investment and work activities in Thermal Power Project is normally monitored by Ministries and also passes through various kinds of interactions with local MPs/MLAs. At present, Project Completion Time is normally kept at around 35 Months (2 yrs 11 months) for Unit # 1 and additional 3 months for Unit # 2 (3 yrs 2 months).  See the big change in completion schedule !!

Moreover, for civil engineering of such projects i.e. analysis, design & drawing part could be started only after other engineering (Mech/Elec/C&I) are completed i.e. after finalization of sizing calculation of different structures/buildings, layout, equipment details such as load, type, supporting system etc. from other engineering point of view. Thus civil engineering is last to start.

However, contrary to above, actual execution i.e. construction/erection of civil engineering needs before all other engineering to give other engineering space for erection. In this way, Civil Engineering is Last In (i.e. Last Started) but First Out (i.e. First Completed) which is called as LIFO in computer language. In this way, civil engineering is sandwiched between other engineering’s design and erection. Thus time available for civil engineering & construction is much less than other engineering.

Whenever, a project is seen to lag behind completion time period, civil engineering & construction time comes under heavy pressure for early completion.
While other engineering (Mech/Elect./C&I) are mostly done at manufacturing units and brought to site and erected on civil structures, Civil construction is done at site in smaller and smaller parts. Each part is woven to another part and then the bigger whole part is produced at project site. When a project gets delayed due to some reasons, always the civil construction authority gets under pressure from higher authority to do the work within the days they tell them. Higher authority also gets pressurized by ministerial staffs during monitoring of the same. They are only concerned about the completion of the project.

Dictating the dates of completion of Milestone Activities by reducing the proposed dates of construction authority is seen in case of all projects. And as such, in a natural way, quality of civil engg. as well as safety of the working personnel badly suffers. Civil Quality people are rebuked and gets mockery in Indian culture. In project review meeting, no one tells about quality of work but everybody is busy about the project schedule monitoring. Everyone is learning all the Milestone Dates by heart so that they are not rebuked by bosses.

Under such circumstances nobody dares to delay a project for maintaining proper quality. Quality gives Long Term Benefits to some other future people, but maintaining a time schedule gives Instant Benefit to the Project Manager who executes the work. And thus quality of concrete is sacrificed.

Another Non-Technical point what I wish to present is about the prevalent all around corruption in Construction Technology. Resorting to corrupted practices by Builders/Promoters/Other Construction companies for higher profit margin as well as corruption in Govt Organisation is another aspect that quality of civil works are sacrificed. Corruption does not only sacrifices the quality but also the quantity.
Third, lack of knowledge/documentation/clear & compulsory technical guidelines/attachment with legality in Indian environment adds fuel & oxygen to corruption & bossism which burns the durability aspect of concrete.

Along with fine tuned Technical discussion, these kind of Social Environmental Polluting Agents (Bossism/Corruption/Ignorance) are also important to highlight for consideration during assessment of  “Durability of  Concrete”.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:18 pm    Post subject: Non Technical Issues Encroaching Quality Deliverables Reply with quote

Dear Eng Bijay Sarkar
Non Technical Issues Encroaching Quality Deliverables

  1. Great point raised on quality due to administrative issues that mar practical quality performance & interference or miss systemising quality.
  2. Indeed, your concerns are genuine requiring seriois attentive resolutions by certain approach in a broad spectrum of engineering profession.
  3. While charting out project schedules, project manager or planner has to reflect right time required to execute project from civil discipline. Various stake holders should be clarified in advance of project take off about all expected delays & all risks involved from quality, time & budget aspects.
  4. It has been envisaged that method statements for all major activities should be charted out to generalise time needed for good quality production.
  5. Project Manager being responsible to deliver project quality, must force adequate time requirement for site production of various civil engineering items. PM must understand that failure in good quality may lead to failure of equipment performance & in many cases, lead to failure of a megha plant or facility causing fatalities & million of dollars loss.
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JVCSNL
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Members,

Mr. Bijay Sarkar has definitely raised valid concerns referring to power sector, the core sector to build national infrastructure.

While I agree to every point and concerns raised, I am of the belief that the land as well as schedule of such projects have came down due to use of modern engineering, project management and construction technologies.  Also, we can't ignore the much better materials available which were not the case earlier.  

In my opinion, the schedules are crashed on two major accounts.  One being engineering time, with use of IT tools, PM based on IT and standardization of the methods.  Second, the erection technologies have also shown much flexible and quicker methods of handling large erections.

I am also of the opinion that the construction time is not very much reduced.  Referring to same power sector, one of the major unit in power industry which is on critical path is boiler and TG.  In most of the projects, this two items generally govern the schedule.  Hence, lot of emphasis has been given to optimization of these two items.  The boiler foundation starts first in the engineering and in most of the stringent schedule projects, the column foundations are required to be completed in 10months from project zero date.  Most of the boilers are standardized and its foundation design can be given in very short time.  The schedules are made in such a way that the first foundation will be cast for columns which requires first erection.  Boiler erection is a long activity and its foundations are usually governed by abnormal loads like wind and seismic.  Hence, during early erection period, the foundation concrete is not much loaded.  Also, in many areas it requires thicknesses upto 3 to 4 m, for which special care with respect to durability is taken.  Same is the case of massive TG foundation raft, column and deck.  

Other items go in parallel and usually do not have much say on the overall project schedule.  

I also agree that what we call "Professional Hazard", as you defined in terms of LIFO (Last in First Out).  Knowing this fact, we have to see what best we can do to ensure our engineered structure perform well.  We have to adopt modern software, materials, standardization and utilities that help us deliver much faster.  

I fully agree that for most of the decision makers, schedule and early completion is the prime motto.  However, in my experience, the quality aspects are stringently demanded by client standing at the site.  

Very importantly, the large size power plants, like 660MW, 800MW plants, the magnitude of civil works has gone up beyond imagination, both for engineer and constructor.  I can share that in one of the project, the total concrete consumed only in boiler area was equal to total concrete required for one complete gas based project.  We as an engineer has to see the bigger picture early in the phase of such project development and find out ways and means to ensure the material quality.  In order to ensure that, we bind both the execution contractors through specifications and ensure site visits (which is usually not part of the engineering contract) for inspection of critical items.  Also, depute the engineering person at field while works are going on, which will facilitate the works (to clear doubts) and also our representation will make contractor meet quality requirements.  

I know, its difficult, but we have to tackle this issue.  Many would agree that anything going wrong at site, the first one to be caught is engineer and not the contractors.  Every problem in entire project team is referred to engineer and hence,we have to emphasize importance of our works.  I believe, its is not 100% solution, but certainly half of the problems will go out.

The e-conf has greatly benefited to many of the engineers sitting in office, who can now at least understand the durability requirements and demand in projects.  

Regards,

Jignesh V Chokshi
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mohannaikleo
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:47 pm    Post subject: Non-Technical Issues Reply with quote

Dear Sefians,

 Thanks a lot for great contributions, really a awesome conclusion i.e, the E-conf benefited to the Civil Engineers community.

There are lot of issues raised by the really experienced engineers, but in reality there are situations that the so called superiors or managers may not be Civil engineers. The real concern of an civil engineer about the factors like quality, durability etc., requires bit more effort, which can be very easily overcome by such managers/mediators. There are situations that some of the suggestions are horrible like, the number of engineers required at site can be reduced (management mindset), usage of improper ingredients etc. I feel the so called managers must be civil engineers...or else he should be kind enough to hear the quality team..... Its not enough that a helpless engineer standing at site adhere to quality, codal provisions durability, progress programme.....etc., when the entire team around him says...its not a problem some how it has to completed.....obviously it will be an ODD MAN OUT.... SO I FEEL IT SHOULD  A COMBINED EFFORT ON CONTRIBUTING A DURABLE, QUALITY PRODUCTS AS AN INFRASTRUCTURE...........


WITH BEST WISHES...
MOHAN

On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 11:49 AM, JVCSNL <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear Members,

Mr. Bijay Sarkar has definitely raised valid concerns referring to power sector, the core sector to build national infrastructure.

While I agree to every point and concerns raised, I am of the belief that the land as well as schedule of such projects have came down due to use of modern engineering, project management and construction technologies. Also, we can't ignore the much better materials available which were not the case earlier.

In my opinion, the schedules are crashed on two major accounts. One being engineering time, with use of IT tools, PM based on IT and standardization of the methods. Second, the erection technologies have also shown much flexible and quicker methods of handling large erections.

I am also of the opinion that the construction time is not very much reduced. Referring to same power sector, one of the major unit in power industry which is on critical path is boiler and TG. In most of the projects, this two items generally govern the schedule. Hence, lot of emphasis has been given to optimization of these two items. The boiler foundation starts first in the engineering and in most of the stringent schedule projects, the column foundations are required to be completed in 10months from project zero date. Most of the boilers are standardized and its foundation design can be given in very short time. The schedules are made in such a way that the first foundation will be cast for columns which requires first erection. Boiler erection is a long activity and its foundations are usually governed by abnormal loads like wind and seismic. Hence, during early erection period, the foundation concrete is not much loaded. Also, in many areas it requires thicknesses upto 3 to 4 m, for which special care with respect to durability is taken. Same is the case of massive TG foundation raft, column and deck.

Other items go in parallel and usually do not have much say on the overall project schedule.

I also agree that what we call "Professional Hazard", as you defined in terms of LIFO (Last in First Out). Knowing this fact, we have to see what best we can do to ensure our engineered structure perform well. We have to adopt modern software, materials, standardization and utilities that help us deliver much faster.

I fully agree that for most of the decision makers, schedule and early completion is the prime motto. However, in my experience, the quality aspects are stringently demanded by client standing at the site.

Very importantly, the large size power plants, like 660MW, 800MW plants, the magnitude of civil works has gone up beyond imagination, both for engineer and constructor. I can share that in one of the project, the total concrete consumed only in boiler area was equal to total concrete required for one complete gas based project. We as an engineer has to see the bigger picture early in the phase of such project development and find out ways and means to ensure the material quality. In order to ensure that, we bind both the execution contractors through specifications and ensure site visits (which is usually not part of the engineering contract) for inspection of critical items. Also, depute the engineering person at field while works are going on, which will facilitate the works (to clear doubts) and also our representation will make contractor meet quality requirements.

I know, its difficult, but we have to tackle this issue. Many would agree that anything going wrong at site, the first one to be caught is engineer and not the contractors. Every problem in entire project team is referred to engineer and hence,we have to emphasize importance of our works. I believe, its is not 100% solution, but certainly half of the problems will go out.

The e-conf has greatly benefited to many of the engineers sitting in office, who can now at least understand the durability requirements and demand in projects.

Regards,

Jignesh V Chokshi
     



     


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SATISH MADHAVRAO KULKARNI
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:20 am    Post subject: Non-Technical Issues <Edited> Reply with quote

Dear All,There are two main observations brought to notice. These are not main problems.
The acceptance of the situation helplessly, by all involved,is a major problem. The integrity and commitment of Civil Engineering professionals is in question. 


1. The situation of LIFO is mentioned. Naturally this (LIFO) process is correct
and can't be questioned or asked for change in sequence. Before all the details are identified and considered, it is not possible to PLAN the structure.If there is pressure for one reason or the other, it should not be at the cost of the life of the structure, for which it is designed.In fact the innovations in the field of Civil Engineering are because of some such restrictions/constraints and pressures.However, it should be always kept in mind that what may happen, it should not affect the reliability of the structure, for which it has been designed, executed and commissioned.  


2.All round corruption. I consider corruption on two fronts. Financial Involvement on one side and its effect on quality/reliability of work executed, on the other side. As long as only financial factor is involved and some body is doing work on lesser profit margin I may not have a  question. However, if the same work is hampered quality wise, service wise, time scheduled wise because of corruption, then this corruption is not acceptable. This is a CRIME. The CRIME is by professionals on which whole society rely upon.The professionals should be loyal to their own CREATION, they should nourish their creation honestly, with full knowledge and with courage to take actions against any thing coming in the way of quality and timely execution of the project. The engineers, at all the levels, should think on this matter and should be committed for desired quality projects, come what may. 
Detailed planning would certainly take care of Time component and even help in reducing the cost of Construction.
Thanks for bringing to notice these key issue for discussion.


 Dr. S. M. Kulkarni

On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 12:22 PM, admin <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
     
[edited]
     SOME NON-TECHNICAL ISSUES WHICH ARE ALSO FELT IMPORTANT FOR QUALITY CONTROL :

Earlier in late 80’s when I started my working life in field, I remember one Thermal Power Project which was completed in 12-14 years inclusive of acquisition of land being in the tune of 2500 acres. At present, in a Thermal Power Plant of 2 x 500 MW capacity requires about 6000 Crores of investment and about 1400 acres of land with a compact layout. This huge investment and work activities in Thermal Power Project is normally monitored by Ministries and also passes through various kinds of interactions with local MPs/MLAs. At present, Project Completion Time is normally kept at around 35 Months (2 yrs 11 months) for Unit # 1 and additional 3 months for Unit # 2 (3 yrs 2 months). See the big change in completion schedule !!

Moreover, for civil engineering of such projects i.e. analysis, design & drawing part could be started only after other engineering (Mech/Elec/C&I) are completed i.e. after finalization of sizing calculation of different structures/buildings, layout, equipment details such as load, type, supporting system etc. from other engineering point of view. Thus civil engineering is last to start.

However, contrary to above, actual execution i.e. construction/erection of civil engineering needs before all other engineering to give other engineering space for erection. In this way, Civil Engineering is Last In (i.e. Last Started) but First Out (i.e. First Completed) which is called as LIFO in computer language. In this way, civil engineering is sandwiched between other engineering’s design and erection. Thus time available for civil engineering & construction is much less than other engineering.

Whenever, a project is seen to lag behind completion time period, civil engineering & construction time comes under heavy pressure for early completion.
While other engineering (Mech/Elect./C&I) are mostly done at manufacturing units and brought to site and erected on civil structures, Civil construction is done at site in smaller and smaller parts. Each part is woven to another part and then the bigger whole part is produced at project site. When a project gets delayed due to some reasons, always the civil construction authority gets under pressure from higher authority to do the work within the days they tell them. Higher authority also gets pressurized by ministerial staffs during monitoring of the same. They are only concerned about the completion of the project.

Dictating the dates of completion of Milestone Activities by reducing the proposed dates of construction authority is seen in case of all projects. And as such, in a natural way, quality of civil engg. as well as safety of the working personnel badly suffers. Civil Quality people are rebuked and gets mockery in Indian culture. In project review meeting, no one tells about quality of work but everybody is busy about the project schedule monitoring. Everyone is learning all the Milestone Dates by heart so that they are not rebuked by bosses.

Under such circumstances nobody dares to delay a project for maintaining proper quality. Quality gives Long Term Benefits to some other future people, but maintaining a time schedule gives Instant Benefit to the Project Manager who executes the work. And thus quality of concrete is sacrificed.

Another Non-Technical point what I wish to present is about the prevalent all around corruption in Construction Technology. Resorting to corrupted practices by Builders/Promoters/Other Construction companies for higher profit margin as well as corruption in Govt Organisation is another aspect that quality of civil works are sacrificed. Corruption does not only sacrifices the quality but also the quantity.
Third, lack of knowledge/documentation/clear & compulsory technical guidelines/attachment with legality in Indian environment adds fuel & oxygen to corruption & bossism which burns the durability aspect of concrete.

Along with fine tuned Technical discussion, these kind of Social Environmental Polluting Agents (Bossism/Corruption/Ignorance) are also important to highlight for consideration during assessment of “Durability of Concrete”.
     



     


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bharat bhushan jindal
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:55 am    Post subject: Non-Technical Issues Reply with quote

We agree , even an illetrate mason disobey er' guidelines on the context of more site experience .. alas they dont need any certification..er b b jindal

Subject: [ECONF] Re: Non-Technical Issues
From: forum@sefindia.org
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 08:22:07 +0530
To: econf@sefindia.org

--             Dear Sefians,

Thanks a lot for great contributions, really a awesome conclusion i.e, the E-conf benefited to the Civil Engineers community.

There are lot of issues raised by the really experienced engineers, but in reality there are situations that the so called superiors or managers may not be Civil engineers. The real concern of an civil engineer about the factors like quality, durability etc., requires bit more effort, which can be very easily overcome by such managers/mediators. There are situations that some of the suggestions are horrible like, the number of engineers required at site can be reduced (management mindset), usage of improper ingredients etc. I feel the so called managers must be civil engineers...or else he should be kind enough to hear the quality team..... Its not enough that a helpless engineer standing at site adhere to quality, codal provisions durability, progress programme.....etc., when the entire team around him says...its not a problem some how it has to completed.....obviously it will be an ODD MAN OUT.... SO I FEEL IT SHOULD A COMBINED EFFORT ON CONTRIBUTING A DURABLE, QUALITY PRODUCTS AS AN INFRASTRUCTURE...........


WITH BEST WISHES...
MOHAN

On Sat, Mar 10, 2012 at 11:49 AM, JVCSNL forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
      --auto removed--

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dipak_bhattacharya
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Non-Technical Issues <Edited> Reply with quote

Yes, as a designer, I fully agree with the issues mentioned above.

Construction at site starts with construction of Foundations.


Calculations of design loadings on foundations starts with calculation of roof loadings,wind loadings on side sheetings, then column loadings.


Column loadings are calculated when no load data or dimensions of cranes are known, because even vendors are not even decided.


After waiting for months when soil data are handed over to the designers , they are pressurized to issue foundation drawings from the very next day.


These nuisances are worst when private projects are carried out.Clients rarely employ qualified civil engineers at site; because everybody knows civil engineering. Wherever employed, very junior level engineers are kept, who have no say in project management..


When something goes wrong at site, first civil designers are caught by the tail and then asked to provide the solutions .Designers have to work on the trouble shooting exercises leaving their own work aside.


Dipak Bhattacharya
-
On 11 March 2012 12:22, admin <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
     
[edited]
     SOME NON-TECHNICAL ISSUES WHICH ARE ALSO FELT IMPORTANT FOR QUALITY CONTROL :

Earlier in late 80’s when I started my working life in field, I remember one Thermal Power Project which was completed in 12-14 years inclusive of acquisition of land being in the tune of 2500 acres. At present, in a Thermal Power Plant of 2 x 500 MW capacity requires about 6000 Crores of investment and about 1400 acres of land with a compact layout. This huge investment and work activities in Thermal Power Project is normally monitored by Ministries and also passes through various kinds of interactions with local MPs/MLAs. At present, Project Completion Time is normally kept at around 35 Months (2 yrs 11 months) for Unit # 1 and additional 3 months for Unit # 2 (3 yrs 2 months). See the big change in completion schedule !!

Moreover, for civil engineering of such projects i.e. analysis, design & drawing part could be started only after other engineering (Mech/Elec/C&I) are completed i.e. after finalization of sizing calculation of different structures/buildings, layout, equipment details such as load, type, supporting system etc. from other engineering point of view. Thus civil engineering is last to start.

However, contrary to above, actual execution i.e. construction/erection of civil engineering needs before all other engineering to give other engineering space for erection. In this way, Civil Engineering is Last In (i.e. Last Started) but First Out (i.e. First Completed) which is called as LIFO in computer language. In this way, civil engineering is sandwiched between other engineering’s design and erection. Thus time available for civil engineering & construction is much less than other engineering.

Whenever, a project is seen to lag behind completion time period, civil engineering & construction time comes under heavy pressure for early completion.
While other engineering (Mech/Elect./C&I) are mostly done at manufacturing units and brought to site and erected on civil structures, Civil construction is done at site in smaller and smaller parts. Each part is woven to another part and then the bigger whole part is produced at project site. When a project gets delayed due to some reasons, always the civil construction authority gets under pressure from higher authority to do the work within the days they tell them. Higher authority also gets pressurized by ministerial staffs during monitoring of the same. They are only concerned about the completion of the project.

Dictating the dates of completion of Milestone Activities by reducing the proposed dates of construction authority is seen in case of all projects. And as such, in a natural way, quality of civil engg. as well as safety of the working personnel badly suffers. Civil Quality people are rebuked and gets mockery in Indian culture. In project review meeting, no one tells about quality of work but everybody is busy about the project schedule monitoring. Everyone is learning all the Milestone Dates by heart so that they are not rebuked by bosses.

Under such circumstances nobody dares to delay a project for maintaining proper quality. Quality gives Long Term Benefits to some other future people, but maintaining a time schedule gives Instant Benefit to the Project Manager who executes the work. And thus quality of concrete is sacrificed.

Another Non-Technical point what I wish to present is about the prevalent all around corruption in Construction Technology. Resorting to corrupted practices by Builders/Promoters/Other Construction companies for higher profit margin as well as corruption in Govt Organisation is another aspect that quality of civil works are sacrificed. Corruption does not only sacrifices the quality but also the quantity.
Third, lack of knowledge/documentation/clear & compulsory technical guidelines/attachment with legality in Indian environment adds fuel & oxygen to corruption & bossism which burns the durability aspect of concrete.

Along with fine tuned Technical discussion, these kind of Social Environmental Polluting Agents (Bossism/Corruption/Ignorance) are also important to highlight for consideration during assessment of “Durability of Concrete”.
     



     


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:25 am    Post subject: Non-Technical Issues <Edited> Reply with quote

CONGRATS to all the leaders of this e-conf


Very well said - it may sound non-technical but it is the crux of the matter

It is very difficult to be a conscious quality observing field engineer in India.
one could be squeezed between top bosses & subordinate staff
It is a very stressful job to ensure quality
we should salute all those who do quality work in spite of great hurdles
I wonder how it gets done in NPP projects
either i missed reading or none from NPP gave his opinion in econf
one thing is sure though - it is costly to do quality work in NPP


ARC



On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 12:22 PM, admin <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:

     SOME NON-TECHNICAL ISSUES WHICH ARE ALSO FELT IMPORTANT FOR QUALITY CONTROL :




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