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consultancy fee structure
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N. Prabhakar
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Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Posts: 451

PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Er. Deshpande,

I agree with your concern on this subject matter.  As Er. Dipak Bhattacharya has mentioned that it is all a question of supply and demand. The fees depend on the quality and quantity of service the consultant provides to the client.  In my opinion, no professional institution can impose a standard scale of fees for each type of service provided.  Besides, who will monitor these fees that are paid to the consultants?   Even, the other professions like Lawyers, Accountants and Doctors (private hospitals also) do not have a standard scale of fees, although their professional bodies are strong and well established.  

In our structural engineering practice, the quality of service provided varies very much from one consultant to the other.    For example, some consultants show reinforcement details of all slabs, beams and columns in a tabular form, i.e. top bar, bottom bar, bar spacing, stirrup spacing, etc. without a bar being shown in elevation or section of the structural element, which is the worst possible manner to prepare reinforcement detail drawings.  Whereas, a highly professional consultant shows the same reinforcement details showing slab reinforcement in plan and sections, beam and column details in elevation and sections, with laps wherever required,  and every bar given a mark no. and also a bar bending schedule for all the bars shown on the drawing.  Only the site staff appreciates the latter service, and for that matter the client may not know the difference between the two.  For these two varying types of services, one cannot charge the same consultancy fee to the client.   Naturally, the client goes for the cheapest and gets the worst possible service.  In the present scenario of property developer controlling the building industry, these technical details do not matter much.

Even, in the news paper advertisements of multi-storey buildings which are coming up in our metros, the names of the Architect, Interior Decorator, landscape consultant and even name of the estate agent are mentioned, not at any time the name of the structural consultant. That shows the general apathy towards our profession.  We are the most unsung heroes of the buidling industry!!!!

With best wishes,

N. Prabhakar
Chartered Structural Engineer
Vasai (E)
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Arun vignesh
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Joined: 04 Dec 2014
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:45 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

I agree with Mr.Prabakar, we can't afford same consulting fee for everyone, but we can maintain standard charges like architects have in their AIIA website, they have their fee details in percentage based on their stage by stage work (for 2d plans, elevation some percentage with standard details, for 3d views some percentage
with standard details) likewise we can also some standard fee based on our work, stages of work and also quality of work by providing standard formats in our approved website itself, so that no one can do details less than the given format. Shall we take an initiative this way.


Regards
S.Arun vignesh
Structural Engineer
Sent from my Windows Phone

From: N. Prabhakar (forum@sefindia.org)
Sent: ‎30/‎11/‎2015 11:47 PM
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure


Dear Er. Deshpande,


I agree with your concern on this subject matter. As Er. Dipak Bhattacharya has mentioned that it is all a question of supply and demand. The fees depends on the quality and quantity of service the consultant provides to the client. In my opinion, no professional institution can impose a standard scale of fees for each type of service provided. Besides, who will monitor these fees that are paid to the consultants? Even, the other professions like Lawyers, Accountants and Doctors (private hospitals also) do not have a standard scale of fees, although their professional bodies are strong and well established.


In our structural engineering practice, the quality of service provided varies very much from one consultant to the other. For example, some consultants show reinforcement details of all slabs, beams and columns in a tabular form, i.e. top bar, bottom bar, bar spacing, stirrup spacing, etc. without a bar being shown in elevation or section of the structural element, which is the worst possible manner to prepare reinforcement detail drawings. Whereas, a highly professional consultant shows the same reinforcement details showing slab reinforcement in plan and sections, beam and column details in elevation and sections, with laps wherever required, and every bar given a mark no. and also a bar bending schedule for all the bars shown on the drawing. Only the site staff appreciates the latter service, and for that matter the client may not know the difference between the two. For these two varying types of services, one cannot charge the same consultancy fee to the client. Naturally, the client goes for the cheapest and gets the worst possible service. In the present scenario of property developer controlling the building industry, these technical details do not matter much.


Even, in the news paper advertisements of multi-storey buildings which are coming up in our metros, the names of the Architect, Interior Decorator, landscape consultant and even name of the estate agent are mentioned, not at any time the name of the structural consultant. That shows the general apathy towards our profession. We are the most unsung heroes of the buidling industry!!!!


With best wishes,


N. Prabhakar
Chartered Structural Engineer

Vasai (E)



On 30 November 2015 at 15:03, dipak_bhattacharya forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
Dear Mr. Despande,

It is the question of demand and supply.
Assignments are few and so-called consultants are too many.
Government agencies decide consultants on lowest quotation basis and then negotiate with the lowest bidder.
The project manager of a state government undertaking commented" you have got enough fees, how much more you want?"
Very hard days are now for small consultants specially.
The state governments get the services first and then say, no fund is available to pay the fees now.
Every other day , one company is coming up and the other is winding up.Many consultants/engineers are joining service for survival.
The clients will spend crores as investments but are stingy in paying the consultants.If one consultant withdraws, others will pounce on the assignments with first call of the client.
However, I encourage your efforts. Above all, the economic scenerio/activities of the country has to improve first.The situation is serious no doubt.


On 28 November 2015 at 12:58, mr.deshpande  forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))> wrote:
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Ravichandran_Ramachandran
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:25 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

Dear Er. Deshpande,

I agree with Er. Prabhakar & Dipak Bhattacharya. It is a question of money and supply. The Client may spend crores of rupees on the project but is stingy when paying the Consultant. I worked as an in-House consultant in a large public sector company. We charge the client (in this case our own internal client) based on the man hours spent. I used to work in Industrial projects. The Client refused to sign the man hour sheet as he felt that we had spent more man hours, even though we had delivered the project deliverables. Most of the time, the changes may have happened due to changes in Mechanical & Electrical inputs. In any Industrial project, the Mechanical & Electrical Disciplines do system design and not basic design. Only the Civil & Structural Engineer does the basic design.


Moreover, if some structure fail (god forbid),, the design done by a civil Engineer is scrutinised first. No one cares to check the veracity of the load data given by mechanical/electrical designers. The construction deficiency will be the last thing to be blamed due to non-technical factors!


Hence,life of a Structural Engineer is like walking on knife and he gets paid peanuts (if you are only a consultancy company) or your services are not rewarded, if you are an in house consultant.


Thanks & Regards,


R. Ravichandran
Retired Structural Designer






On 30 November 2015 at 23:41, N. Prabhakar <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
[quote]            Dear Er. Deshpande,


I agree with your concern on this subject matter. As Er. Dipak Bhattacharya has mentioned that it is all a question of supply and demand. The fees depends on the quality and quantity of service the consultant provides to the client. In my opinion, no professional institution can impose a standard scale of fees for each type of service provided. Besides, who will monitor these fees that are paid to the consultants? Even, the other professions like Lawyers, Accountants and Doctors (private hospitals also) do not have a standard scale of fees, although their professional bodies are strong and well established.


In our structural engineering practice, the quality of service provided varies very much from one consultant to the other. For example, some consultants show reinforcement details of all slabs, beams and columns in a tabular form, i.e. top bar, bottom bar, bar spacing, stirrup spacing, etc. without a bar being shown in elevation or section of the structural element, which is the worst possible manner to prepare reinforcement detail drawings. Whereas, a highly professional consultant shows the same reinforcement details showing slab reinforcement in plan and sections, beam and column details in elevation and sections, with laps wherever required, and every bar given a mark no. and also a bar bending schedule for all the bars shown on the drawing. Only the site staff appreciates the latter service, and for that matter the client may not know the difference between the two. For these two varying types of services, one cannot charge the same consultancy fee to the client. Naturally, the client goes for the cheapest and gets the worst possible service. In the present scenario of property developer controlling the building industry, these technical details do not matter much.


Even, in the news paper advertisements of multi-storey buildings which are coming up in our metros, the names of the Architect, Interior Decorator, landscape consultant and even name of the estate agent are mentioned, not at any time the name of the structural consultant. That shows the general apathy towards our profession. We are the most unsung heroes of the buidling industry!!!!


With best wishes,


N. Prabhakar
Chartered Structural Engineer

Vasai (E)



On 30 November 2015 at 15:03, dipak_bhattacharya forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear Mr. Despande,

It is the question of demand and supply.
Assignments are few and so-called consultants are too many.
Government agencies decide consultants on lowest quotation basis and then negotiate with the lowest bidder.
The project manager of a state government undertaking commented" you have got enough fees, how much more you want?"
Very hard days are now for small consultants specially.
The state governments get the services first and then say, no fund is available to pay the fees now.
Every other day , one company is coming up and the other is winding up.Many consultants/engineers are joining service for survival.
The clients will spend crores as investments but are stingy in paying the consultants.If one consultant withdraws, others will pounce on the assignments with first call of the client.
However, I encourage your efforts. Above all, the economic scenerio/activities of the country has to improve first.The situation is serious no doubt.


On 28 November 2015 at 12:58, mr.deshpande forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))> wrote:
      --auto removed--
     



     



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ishkumarjain
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 23
Location: Nagpur

PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:27 pm    Post subject: Re: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

Mr. Deshpande and my Engineers friends  we have a association names as " Association of Consulting Civil Engineers (I)" (ACCE), Head quarter at Banglore
and has many centers in different city's, Please become Life member of  Association. Formation of New association is not required.

Regards

Ish Kumar Jain

Governing Council Member 2015-2017,
Indian Concrete Institute, Chennai.
  
L K JAIN ASSOCIATES

Consulting Engineer & Structural Designer

36 Old Sneh Nagar,
Wardha Road,
Nagpur - 440 015,
India.

Ph no. +91 712 228 3335
Mobile no +91 94231 01454
New Email
: ishkumarjain01@gmail.com

jeffrey wrote:
Dear Mr. Deshpande,

About 3 years ago, Consultancy Development Centre, supported by the Ministry of Science and Technology, Government of India, initiated this exercise.
They have interviewed and carried out site audits of Consultancies.
Recently they have certified those that met their evaluation criteria.
Regards.

From: mr.deshpande [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2015 12:58 PM
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure



I think we should come together in forming the association all consultancies MNC's should be registered to the association and made mandatory to provide services only if they are registered to the association. Services by the consultancies should align at the rules and regulation set by the association. Anybody not registered to the association should be banned or not recognized either by the fraternity or Government. Any developer/client taking service from the unregistered consultants/MNC's to be deemed for necessary action. The association should be given powers and it should come under the wings of or recognized by Government to make it mandatory. Say for that case just as the municipal of Dubai performs.

If we work on this at least we are sure we have minimum wages to earn. And there is no deviation in our fraternity. Also not treated like donkeys by developers/Architects.

On the contrary we have,
a) auto rickshaw association
b) factory labor association
c) barbers association
d) Doctor's association
e) Architects association..... and take for it
f) scavengers association

we find association for everyone where they stand united for their well being. In this world we are only missing out structural association.

I request all seniors and members to discuss this and be more serious about it we are going to be trend setters for our future engineers.

All those who are running consultancies or working in MNC's please speak and lets call for a meeting and take it forward.

Dear Admin I request you to ping to the registered members of SEFI and members or proprietary of consultancies.

Please speak to take action

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Rajeev Mishra
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Joined: 06 Dec 2009
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:29 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

I agree.

Regards
Rajeev Kumar Mishra


From: "N. Prabhakar" <forum@sefindia.org>
Sent: Mon, 30 Nov 2015 23:44:33
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] consultancy fee structure
           Dear Er. Deshpande,


I agree with your concern on this subject matter. As Er. Dipak Bhattacharya has mentioned that it is all a question of supply and demand. The fees depends on the quality and quantity of service the consultant provides to the client. In my opinion, no professional institution can impose a standard scale of fees for each type of service provided. Besides, who will monitor these fees that are paid to the consultants? Even, the other professions like Lawyers, Accountants and Doctors (private hospitals also) do not have a standard scale of fees, although their professional bodies are strong and well established.


In our structural engineering practice, the quality of service provided varies very much from one consultant to the other. For example, some consultants show reinforcement details of all slabs, beams and columns in a tabular form, i.e. top bar, bottom bar, bar spacing, stirrup spacing, etc. without a bar being shown in elevation or section of the structural element, which is the worst possible manner to prepare reinforcement detail drawings. Whereas, a highly professional consultant shows the same reinforcement details showing slab reinforcement in plan and sections, beam and column details in elevation and sections, with laps wherever required, and every bar given a mark no. and also a bar bending schedule for all the bars shown on the drawing. Only the site staff appreciates the latter service, and for that matter the client may not know the difference between the two. For these two varying types of services, one cannot charge the same consultancy fee to the client. Naturally, the client goes for the cheapest and gets the worst possible service. In the present scenario of property developer controlling the building industry, these technical details do not matter much.


Even, in the news paper advertisements of multi-storey buildings which are coming up in our metros, the names of the Architect, Interior Decorator, landscape consultant and even name of the estate agent are mentioned, not at any time the name of the structural consultant. That shows the general apathy towards our profession. We are the most unsung heroes of the buidling industry!!!!


With best wishes,


N. Prabhakar
Chartered Structural Engineer

Vasai (E)



On 30 November 2015 at 15:03, dipak_bhattacharya <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear Mr. Despande,

It is the question of demand and supply.
Assignments are few and so-called consultants are too many.
Government agencies decide consultants on lowest quotation basis and then negotiate with the lowest bidder.
The project manager of a state government undertaking commented" you have got enough fees, how much more you want?"
Very hard days are now for small consultants specially.
The state governments get the services first and then say, no fund is available to pay the fees now.
Every other day , one company is coming up and the other is winding up.Many consultants/engineers are joining service for survival.
The clients will spend crores as investments but are stingy in paying the consultants.If one consultant withdraws, others will pounce on the assignments with first call of the client.
However, I encourage your efforts. Above all, the economic scenerio/activities of the country has to improve first.The situation is serious no doubt.


On 28 November 2015 at 12:58, mr.deshpande forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
      --auto removed--
     



     

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N. Prabhakar
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sefians,

On a lighter note, I am adding here three cartoons of mine on this subject which were published in the Indian Concrete Journal earlier.







With best wishes,

N. Prabhakar
Chartered Structural Engineer
Vasai (E)
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jaypal143
SEFI Member
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Joined: 18 May 2015
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:38 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

sir,we will have to meet first and have discussion on this topic. so that we can take proper action on it.




On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 5:33 PM, mr.deshpande <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear All,

Why there is no talk about the fees for 2 years now? People have forgotten or may be they are happy. This is the problem in India people agree that there is a problem but are afraid to take action? Can we not do something about this?

Forming a association and binding it legally by government should help all the consultancies and companies, though, we generally get into the hands of Architects or Developers to decide our prospects. But definitely that's not the way forward. In a way I feel factory workers are better than structural engineers because they have an association and they come united to take action for their survival. But we structural engineers have downgraded our own profession. Bloody (pardon for my words) look at the developers how they talk to us as if we are labors!! We all have earned respect in our profession but have forgotten to maintain it!!.

Yes the competition is there nobody can deny it. But lets set a benchmark and then we should compete with each other. The minimum benchmark for the consultancy fee should be set and then, for the consultancies which have already proved their worth should charge accordingly. So that the respect for structural engineers is gained.

Consultancies and MNC's should participate in debating and finalizing this long pending aspiration of structural engineers.

Can we come together to form an association? Please people speak up lets come together as united.
     



     


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jaypal143
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Joined: 18 May 2015
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:39 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

yes sir i agree with u.we should have an association..






On Sat, Nov 28, 2015 at 12:58 PM, mr.deshpande <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           I think we should come together in forming the association all consultancies MNC's should be registered to the association and made mandatory to provide services only if they are registered to the association. Services by the consultancies should align at the rules and regulation set by the association. Anybody not registered to the association should be banned or not recognized either by the fraternity or Government. Any developer/client taking service from the unregistered consultants/MNC's to be deemed for necessary action. The association should be given powers and it should come under the wings of or recognized by Government to make it mandatory. Say for that case just as the municipal of Dubai performs.

If we work on this at least we are sure we have minimum wages to earn. And there is no deviation in our fraternity. Also not treated like donkeys by developers/Architects.

On the contrary we have,
a) auto rickshaw association
b) factory labor association
c) barbers association
d) Doctor's association
e) Architects association..... and take for it
f) scavengers association

we find association for everyone where they stand united for their well being. In this world we are only missing out structural association.

I request all seniors and members to discuss this and be more serious about it we are going to be trend setters for our future engineers.

All those who are running consultancies or working in MNC's please speak and lets call for a meeting and take it forward.

Dear Admin I request you to ping to the registered members of SEFI and members or proprietary of consultancies.

Please speak to take action
     



     


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va
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

N. Prabhakar wrote:
Dear Sefians,

On a lighter note, I am adding here three cartoons of mine on this subject which were published in the Indian Concrete Journal earlier.







With best wishes,

N. Prabhakar
Chartered Structural Engineer
Vasai (E)
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Dr. N. Subramanian
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Er Prabhakarji,

I always like your cartoons in ICJ. I think the earlier cartoons were released in the form of a book and I think I have a copy of the same!

I appreciate your sense of humor, which is missing in many of us!

WArm regards
Subramanian
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