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consultancy fee structure
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VASUDEV_RAO
SEFI Member
SEFI Member


Joined: 24 Aug 2012
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:32 am    Post subject: Fees Reply with quote

Dear All,
I am posting my reply on this forum for the first time.
It's good to see people coming under one umbrage which in future will definitely lead to some uniformity & consensus.
I think looking into all the comments, and my own experience, bigger organizations have a better fee structure (like MNC's), as they are well organized with multi-disciplines and the Clients too support as the stakes are high.
Also I feel the type of service, i.e. industrial, commercial, residential does matter.
The fee problem is in the middle & lower segment for a dedicated single service of Str. Consultancy, which I too experienced & is based mainly on negotiations in comparison to what other's charge. i.e. chaos.
In today's world of cut-throat competition, working to standards is solely on self realization for better deliverable.
Whatever said & done, it is largely influenced by the mentality of the customers thinking only about the cost as criteria. (A best example - albeit with pardon-look into the metro city suburbs, where quack & unqualified Doctors outnumber the qualified ones and thrive)
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va
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:15 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

Dear All,
I fully agree with the views expressed by  Dr Nori.

We must have some minimum standards for offering our services and also some
minimum fee structure. Big question is who will implement it?

Indian Society of Structural Engineers (ISSE) has published suggested
minimum fee structure for structural engineers. For more information refer
link -

http://www.isse.org.in/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102&Item
id=154

or www.isse.org.in > publications> fee structure


Hemant Vadalkar
Consulting Engineer, Mumbai.
Vadalkar@gmail.com







From: nori [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 8:57 AM
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure

Dear Mr Barua,

I am indeed very happy to read your comments. Congratulations for being
frank and forthright.

I am attaching a scanned message from FIDIC for kind information of all the
learned members.
The image is not very clear unless zoomed. I have summed up the main issues

1. First of all we engineers, only we are to blame for the sorry state of
affairs.
2. Do good work and tell the world about.
3. The compensation for our services has to be valued and performance based
and not traded like a commodity. The best trained minds will not choose
engineering consultancy if the compensation is not in line with other
professions..
Best Regards
V V Nori


From: ibarua [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 1:29 PM
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure



21st Jan 2013

I'm surprised that you are talking about charging consultancy fees in terms
of rupees per sq.ft. Are we drawing supply contractors?

The fee has to be a percentage of the cost of the project.

For comprehensive services (architectural, structural, etc.), the Council of
Architecture (the statutory body regulating the architectural profession)
has prescribed certain minimum fees -- as percentage of the value of the
work. The practice in the architectural profession is to charge fees as a
percentage of the cost of the work -- at least in this backward part of the
country where I live and work.

Indrajit Barua.

From: srinivasan_vasudevan
Sent: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 12:02:58
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure
Dear all When quoting the consultancy fees on sft basis , one has to be
careful as to what is the area for consideration Some builders do not pay
for basement areas and parking , ramps etc., as they do not fetch revenue
!!!When designing buildings with double or triple basements, where deep
excavtion protection systems needs to be considered as part of structural
designs , costs to be included in sft cost It is surprising and indeed
stupid for structural engineers to be told , there is no fee consideration
for the most challenging part of building deisgn !!Vasudevan Consulting
engineer Bangalore RegardsTSVcruthi consultants consortium
Pvt.LtdrajajinagarBanglore
From: "abubaker_ka"
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 11:21:24 +0530
To:
ReplyTo: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure

Dear Viren I fully agree with Mr. Jayant, regarding the fee structure for
structural Engineers. But generally there is a common practice in our place.
For structural design and detailing one can charge 0.5% of the cost of
construction . The cost of construction in our place comes to Rs.1000/sq.ft.
for the structural part.That is, the structural consultancy rate /sq.ft is
Rs.5.00. This will end up in Rs.4/sq.ft. Or even less at the time of closing
the account unless the designer is careful in issuing drawings. According to
me the reasonable rate for structural design is 1% of the cost of
structure.( Rs.10.00/ sq.ft). Then only one can do good quality work. If the
architectural and structural designs are done together, 2.5% of cost of
construction or Rs.40/ sq.ft can be charged. This excludes any interior work
or site supervision. With warm regards Prof.Dr.K.A.AbuBaker Sent from my
iPad On 19 Jan 2013, at 19:21, "jlakhlani" wrote:
--auto removed--




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Bharathhassan
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Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:51 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

Dear All,

The Institution of Engineers should make some regulations regarding fixing up fee and authority to sign the drawings .[should regulate order with out proper structural design the building should not be sanctioned .Building should be signed with qualified structural engineers ] .  
Because in my place the building with G+3 or still more floors, the many contractor /engineers will put reinforcement by themselves  without designing the structures .They are not bothered about the safety stability  of the structure not only safety, they are spoiling the image the of structural engineers, The clients will never understand critically / importance of structural designing .


And in addition to above discussion .


Why structural engineers are very less paid compare with other profession ?
Especially in my town [Banaglore ] people doesn't know the importance of structural engineers .And companies are also very less 
the consultancy are taking an advantage .The person / candidates  got more than 5 years of experience with master degrees holders getting less then fresh software professional or banking or ordinary degree holder its most painful thing compare to other cities bangalore is horrible place for structural engineers .And freshers suffers to get a job .


My humble and sincerer request is charge structures in % or estimate man hour basis and give good pay to working level structural engineers.




Regards


Bharath 








 
  
















On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 11:59 AM, SANGEETA WIJ <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear Mr Chattopadhyay

2% fees in India is still a dream for engineers, and very few privileged ones manage to get it; our real “aukat” is primarily fixed by our “Mai Baap” the Architect, who really decides how much does he feel like sharing for structural analysis, design and drawings(including endless revisions and endless no of meetings).I am sorry to have used a little crude language, but this is the harsh reality.

Elsewhere, even in open competition, where some Clients wish to engage engineers directly(it’s a very select Coterie of Clients who go in for such a practice), some of our own friends quote ridiculously low rates like 50P and 75 p per sq feet to “bag” the Project(God only knows what do they do with it after bagging it!).As SEs, we are openly challenged, our payments withheld or delayed endlessly and there is no authority we can approach for justice. So much for burning the midnight oil to deliver the umpteenth revision on time!

Our problems will never get solved unless all the Engineering Associations join hands and get us the much awaited and much abused Engineers’ Bill(as for Institution of Engineers, the less said about them the better, as they have played spoil sport thrice whenever the Bill was ready to be tabled in Pariament).Till then we can forget about our due recognition and due rates and go on being exploited by one and all!(I hate to be giving such a negative picture, but this is an average and true picture, at least in Delhi, where SEs are a dime a dozen!)
Regards
Sangeeta Wij

From: gautam chattopadhyay [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)]

Sent: 22 January 2013 01:35
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure




to indrajit, sangeeta, Viren

when we charge on basis of floor area + foundation we actually charge on the basis of construction cost only. A tentative amount per floor area is assumed as construction cost say 150 per sft or 1600 per sqm. Now if the fees be ascertained at 2% there is no harm i think. Architecture and structure may then be apportioned within the organisation. Viren and others raised a crucial question once again. this scenario is typical of india since there is no PE system here. anyone can sign a drawing. In USA only PEs and in UK, Australia, New Zealand only chartered engineers are allowed to sign drawings. Hence the rates go higher and quality of design and drawings are maintained. Though late, Institution of Engineers India is thinking of introducing PE system but I know it will change the scenario. Cunning politicians will raise question of democracy and will say there should be equal rights of engineers (LOLS). As u know such jestors are plenty in India.

On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 3:05 PM, gautam chattopadhyay forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))> wrote:
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Bharath

I agree with u only few companies pay good amount for SE's, most of them exploit SE's they pay Cod's more than SE. Actually in Bangalore its worse. There are many SE consultancy in Bangalore but due to stiff competition they quote as low as 1rs per sft. How does our profession sustain should be  testified.


Rgds
Manohar
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irshad
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Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:33 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

Dear All,

I fully agree with what Dr. Nori is saying, we ourselves are to be blamed for our precarious condition. In all the projects it is the Architect who hogs the all the limelight and Structural Engineers role is reduced to just some other guy. I feel there need to be some legislation for compulsory structural design and review for all the projects. This will definitely bring the SE’s to the forefront and people will get to know the importance of structural design and the role of a structural Engineer. But I worry if this is not done in a proper way, it will become just a eyewash (the way BMC design and approvals are done).

Regards

Irshad Khan

From: nori [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 8:57 AM
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure



Dear Mr Barua,

I am indeed very happy to read your comments. Congratulations for being frank and forthright.

I am attaching a scanned message from FIDIC for kind information of all the learned members.
The image is not very clear unless zoomed. I have summed up the main issues

1. First of all we engineers, only we are to blame for the sorry state of affairs…
2. Do good work and tell the world about.
3. The compensation for our services has to be valued and performance based and not traded like a commodity. The best trained minds will not choose engineering consultancy if the compensation is not in line with other professions……
Best Regards
V V Nori


From: ibarua [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)]
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 1:29 PM
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure



21st Jan 2013

I'm surprised that you are talking about charging consultancy fees in terms of rupees per sq.ft. Are we drawing supply contractors?

The fee has to be a percentage of the cost of the project.

For comprehensive services (architectural, structural, etc.), the Council of Architecture (the statutory body regulating the architectural profession) has prescribed certain minimum fees -- as percentage of the value of the work. The practice in the architectural profession is to charge fees as a percentage of the cost of the work -- at least in this backward part of the country where I live and work.

Indrajit Barua.

From: srinivasan_vasudevan
Sent: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 12:02:58
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org) (general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org))
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure
Dear all When quoting the consultancy fees on sft basis , one has to be careful as to what is the area for consideration Some builders do not pay for basement areas and parking , ramps etc., as they do not fetch revenue !!!When designing buildings with double or triple basements, where deep excavtion protection systems needs to be considered as part of structural designs , costs to be included in sft cost It is surprising and indeed stupid for structural engineers to be told , there is no fee consideration for the most challenging part of building deisgn !!Vasudevan Consulting engineer Bangalore RegardsTSVcruthi consultants consortium Pvt.LtdrajajinagarBanglore
From: "abubaker_ka"
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 11:21:24 +0530
To:
ReplyTo: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org) (general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org))
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure

Dear Viren I fully agree with Mr. Jayant, regarding the fee structure for structural Engineers. But generally there is a common practice in our place. For structural design and detailing one can charge 0.5% of the cost of construction . The cost of construction in our place comes to Rs.1000/sq.ft. for the structural part.That is, the structural consultancy rate /sq.ft is Rs.5.00. This will end up in Rs.4/sq.ft. Or even less at the time of closing the account unless the designer is careful in issuing drawings. According to me the reasonable rate for structural design is 1% of the cost of structure.( Rs.10.00/ sq.ft). Then only one can do good quality work. If the architectural and structural designs are done together, 2.5% of cost of construction or Rs.40/ sq.ft can be charged. This excludes any interior work or site supervision. With warm regards Prof.Dr.K.A.AbuBaker Sent from my iPad On 19 Jan 2013, at 19:21, "jlakhlani" wrote:
--auto removed--





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ishacon
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:39 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

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s_chandnani
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Joined: 11 May 2012
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:41 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

Mr. Alok Bhoumick has very wishful thinking but i doubt we will live to see the tasks being taken up by any of the institutions.

sunil

From: bsec [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: 22 January 2013 13:12
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure



Dear All,

I agree with the views expressed by Mr Nori. The only way to get what we deserve is to improve our services. There is no denying from the fact that average quality of services provided by us (as a community) is poor and requires significant improvement.

It would be much fruitful if the discussion in the forum is focused on “How we can improve the quality of our Services” & “How we structural engineers can improve our image in the society by showcasing our good works”.

I am of the view that structural engineering forums and professional institutions (like IE, IASE, SEFI, ACE, ICI, ..etc.) have much much greater role to play (than what they are doing at the moment) in achieving the two tasks highlighted above. In my view, these institutions should come forward and help facilitate the BIS and IRC to improve our codes and standards, which are archaic in many cases. These institutions must come out with guidelines for minimum fee structure, code of ethics on professional practices being followed …etc. They should elevate themselves to a position where their recommendations will be taken by the government agencies.

I am aware that it is not an easy task. It requires great leadership qualities of the flag bearers and selfless dedication to serve the community.

With best wishes

Alok Bhowmick


From: nori [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 8:57 AM
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure



Dear Mr Barua,

I am indeed very happy to read your comments. Congratulations for being frank and forthright.

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ajayk
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Joined: 03 Mar 2012
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:44 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

This is precisely what I mentioned in my earlier email.
 
Being in Dubai and having designed good amount of high rise in the boom time, I cannot deny the importance of analyzing the structures for lateral loads. As Mr Satish Jain confronted on the same line, I would like to remind all that these jargons are best understood only other structural engineers and not much appreciated even by many clients, let alone architects/contractors.
 
I did work in India as an independent engineer for a few months in the past. Normally, the works of a structural engineer are treated on competitive rates. And hell, there are so many arguments to convince the correct thing from str engg point of view. Leave the rates, I did see instances where I was not given enough time also as they (a client of non-tech background) says it-can-be-done-in-a-day stuff. Its rediculous but true. Civil engg, by its nature, is not as fancy as lets say IT (or even compare it to architecture). So we need to accept that and hence not paid as high.
 
With regards to improvement, as per FIDIC, engineer is all powerful and is rightly projected here and places like Singapore etc. In India, traditionally, contractors play a predominant role. Its more commercial than technical. Non-important structures such as any 4-storey apt building typically has drawings already prepared and developers/contractors do not waste much time in dealing with engrs (except for calcs to submit to municipality and that too with pressure to comply the calcs with drawings) which generally happens after mobilization at site is performed and construction activity started. And how well municipalities work more than ensuring only the settingout dimensions of the plot, I leave it to everybody's guess. Its the system change, I believe given the clarity what we enjoy here.
 
There are so many things to be dealt in India wrt profession before the discussions on tech front. Peer-to-peer interaction to old/retired engrs vs young engrs on issues eg. software usage to academic instis promoting practical exposure on integrated building design and commercial awareness (for wud-be engrs) etc (than just a RCC or a steel str course) to IE vs govt and all that. And most importantly, pumping in the money required for the field. Ohh, it goes on and on.
 
Glad to see something emerging out of the thread.


 
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 1:01 PM, va <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
  Dear All,
I fully agree with the views expressed by Dr Nori.

We must have some minimum standards for offering our services and also some
minimum fee structure. Big question is who will implement it?

Indian Society of Structural Engineers (ISSE) has published suggested
minimum fee structure for structural engineers. For more information refer
link -

http://www.isse.org.in/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102&Item
id=154

or www.isse.org.in > publications> fee structure


Hemant Vadalkar
Consulting Engineer, Mumbai.
Vadalkar@gmail.com (Vadalkar@gmail.com)







From: nori [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)]
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 8:57 AM
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)

Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure


Dear Mr Barua,

I am indeed very happy to read your comments. Congratulations for being
frank and forthright.


I am attaching a scanned message from FIDIC for kind information of all the
learned members.
The image is not very clear unless zoomed. I have summed up the main issues

1. First of all we engineers, only we are to blame for the sorry state of

affairs.
2. Do good work and tell the world about.
3. The compensation for our services has to be valued and performance based
and not traded like a commodity. The best trained minds will not choose
engineering consultancy if the compensation is not in line with other

professions..
Best Regards
V V Nori


From: ibarua [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)]
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 1:29 PM
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)

Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure




21st Jan 2013

I'm surprised that you are talking about charging consultancy fees in terms
of rupees per sq.ft. Are we drawing supply contractors?

The fee has to be a percentage of the cost of the project.

For comprehensive services (architectural, structural, etc.), the Council of
Architecture (the statutory body regulating the architectural profession)
has prescribed certain minimum fees -- as percentage of the value of the
work. The practice in the architectural profession is to charge fees as a
percentage of the cost of the work -- at least in this backward part of the
country where I live and work.

Indrajit Barua.

From: srinivasan_vasudevan
Sent: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 12:02:58

To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org) (general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org))
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure

Dear all When quoting the consultancy fees on sft basis , one has to be
careful as to what is the area for consideration Some builders do not pay
for basement areas and parking , ramps etc., as they do not fetch revenue
!!!When designing buildings with double or triple basements, where deep
excavtion protection systems needs to be considered as part of structural
designs , costs to be included in sft cost It is surprising and indeed
stupid for structural engineers to be told , there is no fee consideration
for the most challenging part of building deisgn !!Vasudevan Consulting
engineer Bangalore RegardsTSVcruthi consultants consortium
Pvt.LtdrajajinagarBanglore
From: "abubaker_ka"
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 11:21:24 +0530
To:

ReplyTo: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org) (general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org))
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure


Dear Viren I fully agree with Mr. Jayant, regarding the fee structure for
structural Engineers. But generally there is a common practice in our place.
For structural design and detailing one can charge 0.5% of the cost of
construction . The cost of construction in our place comes to Rs.1000/sq.ft.
for the structural part.That is, the structural consultancy rate /sq.ft is
Rs.5.00. This will end up in Rs.4/sq.ft. Or even less at the time of closing
the account unless the designer is careful in issuing drawings. According to
me the reasonable rate for structural design is 1% of the cost of
structure.( Rs.10.00/ sq.ft). Then only one can do good quality work. If the
architectural and structural designs are done together, 2.5% of cost of
construction or Rs.40/ sq.ft can be charged. This excludes any interior work
or site supervision. With warm regards Prof.Dr.K.A.AbuBaker Sent from my

iPad On 19 Jan 2013, at 19:21, "jlakhlani" wrote:
--auto removed--




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vivek Kulshrestha
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Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:25 pm    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

I agreen with Sangeeta ji,
Unless there will not be proper authontication of the engineers community by the constitution of India,this is not going to stop anywhere.And this will results only the selected class of engineers,who are using the engineers as a brand but is doing work of others like "Builder","currupt officials" & like.
In one letter,some one has told about the fees of 50 paise per sqft rate for structural design,in the on going conversation.In this they pouch their working agencies in the project,& where they have the profit shearing of arround 10-20% in the work amount,& like the way,if you calculate this will go upto Rs 50 per sqft costing.
You can understand,the phenomenon,as making fool to the public & real users.
Due to this this the good peoples are not comming in the field,only the people,who have no options are comming in this field,or the govt. engineers are comming in this field,because they have certain back ups on the sallery ground.
Vivek Kulshrestha



From: SANGEETA WIJ <forum@sefindia.org>
To: general@sefindia.org
Sent: Tuesday, 22 January 2013 11:59 AM
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure

Dear Mr Chattopadhyay2% fees in India is still a dream for engineers, and very few privileged ones manage to get it; our real “aukat” is primarily fixed by our “Mai Baap” the Architect, who really decides how much does he feel like sharing for structural analysis, design and drawings(including endless revisions and endless no of meetings).I am sorry to have used a little crude language, but this is the harsh reality. Elsewhere, even in open competition, where some Clients wish to engage engineers directly(it’s a very select Coterie of Clients who go in for such a practice), some of our own friends quote ridiculously low rates like 50P and 75 p per sq feet to “bag” the Project(God only knows what do they do with it after bagging it!).As SEs, we are openly challenged, our payments withheld or delayed endlessly and there is no authority we can approach for justice. So much for burning the midnight oil to deliver the umpteenth revision on time!Our problems will never get solved unless all the Engineering Associations join hands and get us the much awaited and much abused Engineers’ Bill(as for Institution of Engineers, the less said about them the better, as they have played spoil sport thrice whenever the Bill was ready to be tabled in Pariament).Till then we can forget about our due recognition and due rates and go on being exploited by one and all!(I hate to be giving such a negative picture, but this is an average and true picture, at least in Delhi, where SEs are a dime a dozen!)RegardsSangeeta WijFrom: gautam chattopadhyay [mailto:forum@sefindia.org] Sent: 22 January 2013 01:35To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structureto indrajit, sangeeta, Virenwhen we charge on basis of floor area + foundation we actually charge on the basis of construction cost only. A tentative amount per floor area is assumed as construction cost say 150 per sft or 1600 per sqm. Now if the fees be ascertained at 2% there is no harm i think. Architecture and structure may then be apportioned within the organisation. Viren and others raised a crucial question once again. this scenario is typical of india since there is no PE system here. anyone can sign a drawing. In USA only PEs and in UK, Australia, New Zealand only chartered engineers are allowed to sign drawings. Hence the rates go higher and quality of design and drawings are maintained. Though late, Institution of Engineers India is thinking of introducing PE system but I know it will change the scenario. Cunning politicians will raise question of democracy and will say there should be equal rights of engineers (LOLS). As u know such jestors are plenty in India.On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 3:05 PM, gautam chattopadhyay forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))> wrote:--auto removed-- --

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diwakar bhagat
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Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject: Share this consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

Dear all

The fee structure as we see as a consultancy fee for structural design is in a non concluded and in a sorry state and only we ( structural engineers ) are  to blame  as said  in this string of mail.
it would be nice to point out that we ( all structural enggrs put together ) are to blame and we cannot pin point any individual amongst us at a given point of time to be responsible ...... This is because we individuals have been forced / dominated /conceeded / accepted fees , which has not still been unified to an acceptable minimum level amongst us , hence no question arises of anything going wrong on his (any individual )Part when he (any)accepts less fees in terms of square foot ...... Because we still have not formed a consensus of mininimum ... fees and we ourselves have left ourselves to be dominated by an open market , driven by market desire... Requirement ... And market need and market  developed fee structure ... Wherein market (end client ) doesn't understands the following about our work
a)
importance of structural engineering in permanent infrastructural development of a country (just think this way after nearly 50 to 75 years no working / earning person at age of 25 years currently Will live to see a day in a our country , only the man made structures will remain there and there will be altogether new set of human beings .... Hence all infrastructural development is only the long term surviving permanent asset of our country by which our country will be recognised / appraised / valued ...  This is very much gauged by , what we see and call other countries as developed nations .... Like. USA , whole of EUROPE .. Japan .. Singapore... .. And we can see now China ... Also we take pride in our hitorical monuments ..qutab minar ..taj mahal ...huge sized temple precints .... Large no of huge sized forts and palaces ... These have outlived there time and INDIA.... Is identified by these permanent ..... Monuments ....... No ..mistake ... THESE ARE STRUCTURES.......

b)
Hoping that as discussed in a).            the importance /significance / presence of structures can be felt by us in india ... but INDIA As a market is not able to realise the importance of structures
and sadly there is no specific body which can enforce this upon the developers ... And the agencies which are making (minting ) money out of construction industry without paying heed to stringent quality control issues in terms of construction (testings as stipulated ) and selecting...... consultants on merit and paying them well.

c)
It is of prime importance that the Indian construction industry realises  its own  lacunae in terms of consultants selection , fee of consultants. presence of larger no of qualified engineers ( structural .. Mechanical .. Electrical ..)

Question is ......how can this be achieved .....

ENGINEERS BILL is an answer and all engineers must take effort to achieve this .. Also non practising engineers should take effort to get this accomplished , for this Will be good for the whole nation ,

as this will optimize material consumtion and natural resources of country and also a better engineered ( designed ) structure will have an  Enhanced life span and this will also bring about richness to country as shorter life span of structure requires rebuilding in lesser number of years and again this consumes all the Resources of our country in shorter time frame ... Say every 40 to 50 years we renew our buildings in india made of rcc , whereas internationally this number of years is Much higher ....

d ) all the documents including the structural drawing ( structural drawings in itself becomes a legal Document as it stands to be the physical / material proof of structural engineers signed responsibility towards the society through the client / developer  ) should carry forward a message that the validity of design and drawing and the legal responsibility of the structural engineer ceases until and unless the developer puts forth the documents of testing of concrete , steel , cement and other material used by him in construction.
This Will mean that the developer will have to be held responsible for any thing going wrong. In building at later date ....even before the design is put under question the developer should be held responsible , because its him who is the person selecting
The consultant ( thru arch mostly ) and incompetent consultants are also selected    to keep the fee low.... Hence the Developer should be made to own responsibility  
For his non performance and taking no pain in verifying credentials of a consultant before  selecting a competent consultant.

Having said "all" we have to generate all document and drawings which holds the "developer responsible" FIRST before a consultant is held responsible .... Consultant should always come second in line .... If this happens then only the developer will come to consultant with "folded hands" and will pay with.        " open hands "
Currently its the reverse .

Regards

Diwakar bhagat


Sent from BlackBerry® on Airtel

--Original Message--
From: nori <forum@sefindia.org>
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2013 03:26:33
To: <general@sefindia.org>
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure

           
Dear Mr Barua,

I am indeed very happy to read your comments. Congratulations for being frank and forthright.

I am attaching a scanned message from FIDIC for kind information of all the learned members.
The image is not very clear unless zoomed. I have summed up the main issues

1. First of all we engineers, only we are to blame for the sorry state of affairs.
2. Do good work and tell the world about.
3. The compensation for our services has to be valued and performance based and not traded like a commodity. The best trained minds will not choose engineering consultancy if the compensation is not in line with other professions..  
Best Regards
V V Nori


From: ibarua [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 1:29 PM
To: general@sefindia.org <mailto:general@sefindia.org>
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure



21st Jan 2013

I'm surprised that you are talking about charging consultancy fees in terms of rupees per sq.ft. Are we drawing supply contractors?

The fee has to be a percentage of the cost of the project.

For comprehensive services (architectural, structural, etc.), the Council of Architecture (the statutory body regulating the architectural profession) has prescribed certain minimum fees -- as percentage of the value of the work. The practice in the architectural profession is to charge fees as a percentage of the cost of the work -- at least in this backward part of the country where I live and work.

Indrajit Barua.

From: srinivasan_vasudevan
Sent: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 12:02:58
To: general@sefindia.org <mailto:general@sefindia.org>  (general@sefindia.org <mailto:general@sefindia.org> )
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure
Dear all When quoting the consultancy fees on sft basis , one has to be careful as to what is the area for consideration Some builders do not pay for basement areas and parking , ramps etc., as they do not fetch revenue !!!When designing buildings with double or triple basements, where deep excavtion protection systems needs to be considered as part of structural designs , costs to be included in sft cost It is surprising and indeed stupid for structural engineers to be told , there is no fee consideration for the most challenging part of building deisgn !!Vasudevan Consulting engineer Bangalore RegardsTSVcruthi consultants consortium Pvt.LtdrajajinagarBanglore
From: "abubaker_ka"
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2013 11:21:24 +0530
To:
ReplyTo: general@sefindia.org <mailto:general@sefindia.org>  (general@sefindia.org <mailto:general@sefindia.org> )
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure

Dear Viren I fully agree with Mr. Jayant, regarding the fee structure for structural Engineers. But generally there is a common practice in our place. For structural design and detailing one can charge 0.5% of the cost of construction . The cost of construction in our place comes to Rs.1000/sq.ft. for the structural part.That is, the structural consultancy rate /sq.ft is Rs.5.00. This will end up in Rs.4/sq.ft. Or even less at the time of closing the account unless the designer is careful in issuing drawings. According to me the reasonable rate for structural design is 1% of the cost of structure.( Rs.10.00/ sq.ft). Then only one can do good quality work. If the architectural and structural designs are done together, 2.5% of cost of construction or Rs.40/ sq.ft can be charged. This excludes any interior work or site supervision. With warm regards Prof.Dr.K.A.AbuBaker Sent from my iPad On 19 Jan 2013, at 19:21, "jlakhlani" wrote:
--auto removed--
     




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