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consultancy fee structure
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abhio
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Dr N S Sir,

I always thank my lucky stars that I have been guided into the field of special structures where some sanity prevails. The incident I had related pertained to a cross-check of our designs by our client's engineer. Our design appeared to be excessively conservative, but was based on sound engineering. I intended to use this example to illustrate that a proper design may appear to be too expensive when contrasted with a poorly thought-out one.

Respectful regards,

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Invictus Consultancy Services,
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Er Oundhakar,

I believe with cut-throat competition in the regular RC building design, one must have  expertize in a niche area also, so that he/she can survive. We were doing tower designs for our survival.

Best wishes and regards,
NS
abhio wrote:
Dear Dr N S Sir,

I always thank my lucky stars that I have been guided into the field of special structures where some sanity prevails. The incident I had related pertained to a cross-check of our designs by our client's engineer. Our design appeared to be excessively conservative, but was based on sound engineering. I intended to use this example to illustrate that a proper design may appear to be too expensive when contrasted with a poorly thought-out one.

Respectful regards,
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dipak_bhattacharya
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:02 pm    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

Clients can be divided clearly in two categories:Govt Organisations and the Private Clients.

Barring a few efficient Govt Undertakings, most Govt clients(organisations) arethoroughuseless and unfit to handle projects.They decide consultants through tenders with minimum quotes, reject good private consultants with every possible pleas and select another Govt Consultant to play safe.Make every possible reason to delay in giving those meagre payments to consultants, again to play safe!!


On the other hand, private clients want such consultants who will design with minimum costs throwing in the winds all kinds of norms, codal practices, even if the designs are unsafe.They mostly make timely payments and love making payments with maximum cash and minimum in white.They ask consultants to declare costs well below the actuals.


No Standardizationor Ethical Norms exist in Business and Commerce in India.


Thanks.



On 23 January 2013 13:49, satish_jain <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
[quote]            Good point on Inflation! I have been making the same point to several structural engineers. Keeping low fees(in sq. ft terms) will certainly kill our firms in the coming 4 to 5 years, if you work on the same fees today and 5 years from now.

Real estate prices increase over the years and our fees gets depreciated - way to go for a country like ours. I have to agree that even I have to take fees in terms of sq. ft as that is the demand no matter what from the clients but we probably reject 5 jobs in 10 just because of low fees offered. We revise our asking rate from year to year based on the inflation and take only those jobs where the client can understand that to provide good engineering, I have to keep good staff and that costs MONEY!


Regards,
Satish Jain

On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 12:08 PM, efficientdesign forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
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arunkashikar
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:47 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

Though I agree with the view expressed by Satish and others, I thought, I should also put developers perspective across.  

1) As developer is selling homes on per sqft basis, anything for him including consultants fees are per sqft figures, and this is unlikely to change.  
2) Lowest per sqft fee will be favored unless consultant can prove that higher fee demanded by them can result in safe but economical structure. Unfortunately, many consultants are not sensitive towards the cost of structure they are designing. They are not ready to go extra mile to make the structure economical, ( of course without compromising the safety and serviceability of structure) , if this need extra effort.  
3) Now a days, most of the developers get their designs peer reviewed. If suggestion by peer review consultants results in saving, they are normally not accepted by main consultant as this need extra effort, or need accepting that the design was uneconomical. In my opinion uneconomical designs should be treated at par with unsafe design.  
4) If all consultants stick to their professional integrity, by refusing to compromise on safety and serviceability of structure, award of job on ‘kg/sqft of reinforcement’ is in line with fare competition  


Regards,

Arun Kashikar
Head - R&D

Tata Housing Development Company Ltd.,
Tel.: (D): +91 22 - 66614988 | Mobile: +91 9819055576

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From: satish_jain [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 1:49 PM
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure



Good point on Inflation! I have been making the same point to several structural engineers. Keeping low fees(in sq. ft terms) will certainly kill our firms in the coming 4 to 5 years, if you work on the same fees today and 5 years from now.

Real estate prices increase over the years and our fees gets depreciated - way to go for a country like ours. I have to agree that even I have to take fees in terms of sq. ft as that is the demand no matter what from the clients but we probably reject 5 jobs in 10 just because of low fees offered. We revise our asking rate from year to year based on the inflation and take only those jobs where the client can understand that to provide good engineering, I have to keep good staff and that costs MONEY!


Regards,
Satish Jain

On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 12:08 PM, efficientdesign  forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:      
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srinivasan_vasudevan
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:55 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

I completley disagree with dipak bhattachgarya both on fees and quality We are working on consultancy projects with big MNC companies and also with govt, semi govt and private deveopers It is unfortunate to say that all in govt are bad and they are not professionals and our experience has been very good We are paid fees much better than some private developers and project do go smoothly after proof checking by third party  The answer to all these points on non conformity to codes and bussiness, cannot be generalised and his biitter experience may be an exception and not a rule Vasudevan Consulting engineer bangalore RegardsTSVcruthi consultants consortium Pvt.LtdrajajinagarBanglore
From: "dipak_bhattacharya" <forum@sefindia.org>
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2013 14:51:58 +0530
To: <general@sefindia.org>
ReplyTo: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure

     Clients can be divided clearly in two categories:Govt Organisations and the Private Clients.  Barring a few efficient Govt Undertakings, most Govt clients(organisations) arethoroughuseless and unfit to handle projects.They decide consultants through tenders with minimum quotes, reject good private consultants with every possible pleas and select another Govt Consultant to play safe.Make every possible reason to delay in giving those meagre payments to consultants, again to play safe!!   On the other hand, private clients want such consultants who will design with minimum costs throwing in the winds all kinds of norms, codal practices, even if the designs are unsafe.They mostly make timely payments and love making payments with maximum cash and minimum in white.They ask consultants to declare costs well below the actuals.   No Standardizationor Ethical Norms exist in Business and Commerce in India.   Thanks.    On 23 January 2013 13:49, satish_jain  wrote: [quote]             Good point on Inflation! I have been making the same point to several structural engineers. Keeping low fees(in sq. ft terms) will certainly kill our firms in the coming 4 to 5 years, if you work on the same fees today and 5 years from now.   Real estate prices increase over the years and our fees gets depreciated - way to go for a country like ours. I have to agree that even I have to take fees in terms of sq. ft as that is the demand no matter what from the clients but we probably reject 5 jobs in 10 just because of low fees offered. We revise our asking rate from year to year based on the inflation and take only those jobs where the client can understand that to provide good engineering, I have to keep good staff and that costs MONEY!   Regards, Satish Jain  On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 12:08 PM, efficientdesign forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))> wrote:       --auto removed--         --

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PRADIPTA MOHAPATRA
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:39 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

I do completely agree with Dipak.
I have been working in Bhubaneswar,Odisha. Here the Development Authority requires the the Structural Engineer to give Structural Stability Certificate before According Approval and the stability certificate is such , the entire onus of responsibility lies on his head. If a client does not pay , no consultant can visit the site and supervise the works or check reinforcements etc.
Normally ,once a developer takes a design from the Structural Engineer, he goes on his own way and the structural Engineer never knows really what is happening to his design.
This is a serious flaw in the system, where from Govt.point of view the work is under the complete control of Structural Engineer , but at 1 to 2 rupee per sft the Structural Engineer can do nothing beyond releasing the drawings only.

Thanks
Quote:
-- Original Message --
From: dipak_bhattacharya (forum@sefindia.org)
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2013 2:51 PM
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure


Clients can be divided clearly in two categories:Govt Organisations and the Private Clients.

Barring a few efficient Govt Undertakings, most Govt clients(organisations) are thorough useless and unfit to handle projects.They decide consultants through tenders with minimum quotes, reject good private consultants with every possible pleas and select another Govt Consultant to play safe.Make every possible reason to delay in giving those meagre payments to consultants, again to play safe!!


On the other hand, private clients want such consultants who will design with minimum costs throwing in the winds all kinds of norms, codal practices, even if the designs are unsafe.They mostly make timely payments and love making payments with maximum cash and minimum in white.They ask consultants to declare costs well below the actuals.


No Standardization or Ethical Norms exist in Business and Commerce in India.


Thanks.



On 23 January 2013 13:49, satish_jain forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
Good point on Inflation! I have been making the same point to several structural engineers. Keeping low fees(in sq. ft terms) will certainly kill our firms in the coming 4 to 5 years, if you work on the same fees today and 5 years from now.

Real estate prices increase over the years and our fees gets depreciated - way to go for a country like ours. I have to agree that even I have to take fees in terms of sq. ft as that is the demand no matter what from the clients but we probably reject 5 jobs in 10 just because of low fees offered. We revise our asking rate from year to year based on the inflation and take only those jobs where the client can understand that to provide good engineering, I have to keep good staff and that costs MONEY!


Regards,
Satish Jain

On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 12:08 PM, efficientdesign forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))> wrote:
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:15 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

To fix fees on the structural cost shall tend to economise the structure less.I am in the Water Field, in which the sections are thinner, so fees shall change. To make a structural economical we have to make more efforts and it shall reduce the fees. So it should be on area  basis. Residential-Rs 4/-rS 6/= sqft. Industrial - Rs 5/= to Rs10/= depending on the type of structure. Special fees for making economic structure or doing structual wonders.  Thanks/Regards Sangeeta     On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:47:32 +0530 wrote >                   Dr Abubaker has listed a preferred or a very theoretical figure and is on every Consultant’s wish-list; in the real life you may get shockers as structural consultants sometimes quote as low as 50 paise per sq feet! > In fact I would be happy to get 1. To 1.5 % of structural cost as fees and even 4-6/- per sq feet for structures would make my day, for a Project of roughly 10 lakh sq feet or more; for smaller configurations or floors or villas, one must charge a lumpsum after evaluating your own costing based on design engineer’s and draftsman’s time, stationery, printing, computer and software cost, office executive support and rent, meetings’ time > Regards > Sangeeta Wij etc…. >  > From: abubaker_ka [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]  > Sent: 20 January 2013 11:21 > To: general@sefindia.org > Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure >  >  >  > Dear Viren > I fully agree with Mr. Jayant, regarding the fee structure for structural Engineers. But generally there is a common practice in our place. For structural design and detailing one can charge 0.5% of the cost of construction . The cost of construction in our place comes to Rs.1000/sq.ft. for the structural part.That is, the structural consultancy rate /sq.ft is Rs.5.00. This will end up in Rs.4/sq.ft. Or even less at the time of closing the account unless the designer is careful in issuing drawings. According to me the reasonable rate for structural design is 1% of the cost of structure.( Rs.10.00/ sq.ft). Then only one can do good quality work. > If the architectural and structural designs are done together, 2.5% of cost of construction or Rs.40/ sq.ft can be charged. This excludes any interior work or site supervision. >  >  >  > With warm regards >  > Prof.Dr.K.A.AbuBaker >  >  > Sent from my iPad >  >  >  >  >  > On 19 Jan 2013, at 19:21, "jlakhlani" forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote: >  >  >       --auto removed--

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SANGEETA WIJ
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:26 am    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

Thanks a lot Mr Kashikar for putting forth a frank perspective of Builders and Developers and I tend to agree with most of what you’ve mentioned(although the peer review Consultant’s suggestions for economy are normally accepted by main consultants these days, unless they are already squeezed and have no resources left in their kitty to do a complete rework!).
I would like to mention again my earlier suggestion to you: why don’t you have a minimum fees worked out internally, and keep that in mind while empanelling and awarding work to Consultancy firms.

The biggest problems with award on lowest fees is that sometimes the Consultant is too desperate and quotes ridiculously low fees to get work(and lands himself and the Client into a Big mess) or he’s genuinely not in position to correctly visualize all the likely costs and quotes a ridiculously low figure(and again lands himself and the Client in a big mess). Either way, the Client and the Project suffers, in terms of design quality and inordinate delays! Both the main and proof Consultants could be offered a cut on the savings they bring in together as a team, to ensure that the Project does not suffer and the Clients get the best and most optimum designs.

Regards
Sangeeta Wij

From: arunkashikar [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: 25 January 2013 14:32
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure



Though I agree with the view expressed by Satish and others, I thought, I should also put developers perspective across.

1) As developer is selling homes on per sqft basis, anything for him including consultants fees are per sqft figures, and this is unlikely to change.
2) Lowest per sqft fee will be favored unless consultant can prove that higher fee demanded by them can result in safe but economical structure. Unfortunately, many consultants are not sensitive towards the cost of structure they are designing. They are not ready to go extra mile to make the structure economical, ( of course without compromising the safety and serviceability of structure) , if this need extra effort.
3) Now a days, most of the developers get their designs peer reviewed. If suggestion by peer review consultants results in saving, they are normally not accepted by main consultant as this need extra effort, or need accepting that the design was uneconomical. In my opinion uneconomical designs should be treated at par with unsafe design.
4) If all consultants stick to their professional integrity, by refusing to compromise on safety and serviceability of structure, award of job on ‘kg/sqft of reinforcement’ is in line with fare competition


Regards,

Arun Kashikar
Head - R&D

Tata Housing Development Company Ltd.,
Tel.: (D): +91 22 - 66614988 | Mobile: +91 9819055576

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7 Switch off as you go | qAlways recycle | P Save a tree... think before print.... Go green


From: satish_jain [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 1:49 PM
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure



Good point on Inflation! I have been making the same point to several structural engineers. Keeping low fees(in sq. ft terms) will certainly kill our firms in the coming 4 to 5 years, if you work on the same fees today and 5 years from now.

Real estate prices increase over the years and our fees gets depreciated - way to go for a country like ours. I have to agree that even I have to take fees in terms of sq. ft as that is the demand no matter what from the clients but we probably reject 5 jobs in 10 just because of low fees offered. We revise our asking rate from year to year based on the inflation and take only those jobs where the client can understand that to provide good engineering, I have to keep good staff and that costs MONEY!


Regards,
Satish Jain

On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 12:08 PM, efficientdesign forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))> wrote:
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lets say that the client agrees to pay Rs. 4 per kg of reinforcment to the SE at the begining of the job. Lets also assume that the estimate at the beginning of the job is 800 Tonnes. At the end of the job lets say the actual tonnage that comes up is 900T. In line with Mr. Kashikars email and I quote "award of job on kg/sqft of reinforcement is in line with fare competition" the consultant will then be paid 4 kg per sqft on 900T.

If this is not what the developer/client wants and he wants to pay Rs 4 per kg for 800 T only, then basically what the client wants is a lumpsum contract.

In India an architect is not one who knows how to plan well. An architect is one who holds a 5 year degree course in Architecture. You can be great at planning but you cannot call yourself an Architect if you dont hold a five degree in Architecture.

The problem is architects have a role to play in all aspects of the structure whereas SE's dont. The architects role ranges from

1. Location of electrical panel rooms in a building.
2. Location and type of electrical fittings.
3. Type and style of plumbing fittings.
4. Furniture and Internal Layouts.
5. Space Planning.
6. Conveying and rotuing of services.

The list is endless. Whereas many structural engineers think of themselves as people who put rebars into concrete. The role of engineers is not just that of people putting bars into concrete. We have all been educated on drain design, fluid mechanics, pavement design, but yet very few engineers put this to use. architects have no clue about levels and contours, cut and fill, drain design, Integrated Services Co-ordination etc. These are areas which are still untouched.

In another 10 years there is going to be a dearth of good engineers who can provide comprehensive engineering services and also Project managers. Currently a lot of the Project management firms are pencil pushers. They fill out forms and checklists and sometimes they are  also MBA's sitting at site and have no clue about engineering. There people are ruling the roost primarily because of their communication skills. Architects are nowadays unable to co-ordinate so many trades and work out schedules and provide cash flow scenarios to clients.

We need to understand that only 10% or so of buildings in India are actually engineered, the rest of them are built by the mistry at site. So there is room for all of us.

Think about why a WS Atkins or Ove Arup & Partners does not work on a sqft basis. It is because of their name and integrity. We are finally only a nation of subcontractors. We are also a nation of back offices. We are not the thinkers. We are the workers.

Integrity, honesty and track record should be the deciding factors for appointing a consultant and not any other factors.

There is always scope for improvement and everyone of us should have a chapter of "Lessons Learnt" at the end of every job to improve oneself.

Regards,

Sriprakash.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:04 pm    Post subject: consultancy fee structure Reply with quote

Dear Mr Kashikar,

I do not agree with your views. I think the builder’s need to change their outlook about appointment of structural consultants. When you consult a doctor, you do not necessarily go to the doctor who is charging the least consulting fee. No doctor comes to your door step to prove that the high consulting fee that he charges is due to X, Y & Z factors and certainly that is not the reason for your choosing that particular doctor. Than why different yardstick for Structural Engineers ?

Money is a great motivator and therefore if the builder pays reasonable amount to the structural engineer, he may travel that extra mile for you to make the structure economical. You are actually expecting that the consultant shall be paid the least amount and he should give the maximum. That’s not fare as a builder. After all what is the extra % of cost we are talking about ? Very little from Builder’s perspective.

Please remember that structural consultants is only a small (but no less important) part of the civil engineering society. The big players must take note of the interest of all stakeholders in their own larger interest.  

Best Wishes

Alok Bhowmick


From: arunkashikar [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Friday, January 25, 2013 2:32 PM
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure



Though I agree with the view expressed by Satish and others, I thought, I should also put developers perspective across.

1) As developer is selling homes on per sqft basis, anything for him including consultants fees are per sqft figures, and this is unlikely to change.
2) Lowest per sqft fee will be favored unless consultant can prove that higher fee demanded by them can result in safe but economical structure. Unfortunately, many consultants are not sensitive towards the cost of structure they are designing. They are not ready to go extra mile to make the structure economical, ( of course without compromising the safety and serviceability of structure) , if this need extra effort.
3) Now a days, most of the developers get their designs peer reviewed. If suggestion by peer review consultants results in saving, they are normally not accepted by main consultant as this need extra effort, or need accepting that the design was uneconomical. In my opinion uneconomical designs should be treated at par with unsafe design.
4) If all consultants stick to their professional integrity, by refusing to compromise on safety and serviceability of structure, award of job on ‘kg/sqft of reinforcement’ is in line with fare competition


Regards,

Arun Kashikar
Head - R&D

Tata Housing Development Company Ltd.,
Tel.: (D): +91 22 - 66614988 | Mobile: +91 9819055576

Facebook | Twitter | Linkedin |Youtube | Flickr
7 Switch off as you go | qAlways recycle | P Save a tree... think before print.... Go green


From: satish_jain [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 1:49 PM
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)
Subject: [SEFI] Re: consultancy fee structure



Good point on Inflation! I have been making the same point to several structural engineers. Keeping low fees(in sq. ft terms) will certainly kill our firms in the coming 4 to 5 years, if you work on the same fees today and 5 years from now.

Real estate prices increase over the years and our fees gets depreciated - way to go for a country like ours. I have to agree that even I have to take fees in terms of sq. ft as that is the demand no matter what from the clients but we probably reject 5 jobs in 10 just because of low fees offered. We revise our asking rate from year to year based on the inflation and take only those jobs where the client can understand that to provide good engineering, I have to keep good staff and that costs MONEY!


Regards,
Satish Jain

On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 12:08 PM, efficientdesign forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))> wrote:
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