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[Regulating Profession] - The Way Ahead

 
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nilesh_shah
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:23 am    Post subject: [Regulating Profession] - The Way Ahead Reply with quote

Dear SEFIANs,


We are halfway through the E-Conference.


There has been interesting discussion on subsection "Regulating the profession";.


Almost everyone who posted for this subsection felt the need for a regulating body.


Even, discussion in other subsection also revealed the need for a regulating body.


Everyone on this forum would agree with views expressed by Er Alok Bhowmick. Currently, 3 institutions are appealing for registration of PE and there is a confusion, whether to register PE with IE(I), ECI or CEAI.


anjan_sen, rightly pointed out that, currently a civil engineer - even without PE registration from any of these institute/association can get a license to practise as structural engineer with local authority.


Several questions need answers:


1.       Under current scenario, if PE from any of these institute/association carry any value (in view of point noted by anjan_sen)? Or it is just an additional suffix to our name?


2.       Which institute/association should look after regulating the structural engineering profession? Or should it continue to be laissez faire as being practised currently.


3.       IE(I) has a Royal Charter since 1935. Does this mean that we don’t need Engineers Bill enacted by the Parliament?


4.       Through its royal charter, is there a clear understanding of IE(I)’s role in regulating engineering profession in India? If so, what role did IE(I) play in the past to regulate engineering profession?


5.       All the institutes that currently offer PE are common for several branches of engineering. Do we need an institute that is exclusive to structural engineering? Jignesh V Chokshi, mentioned that role and liability of structural engineers is much larger as compared to other engineering services. He emphasised that there has to be a separate law for structural engineering profession. I have also raised same concern in my opening remarks.


James Cohen inquired about existence of any industry-internal means by which allegations of unethical behaviour can be investigated, judged and published, even without legal backing to enforce penalties.


Perhaps the answer is NO.


Many have expressed their frustration that such discussions will go on for decades without a positive outcome.


It is high time that all individuals belonging to this profession and the institutes/associations should unite.


·         One of the national institutes may take lead for registration of PE and prepare frame work for regulating structural engineering profession. This may include standards for practice, fees, roles and responsibilities, performance criteria, model agreement, need for continuous education, etc.


·         The licensure and government shall be convinced that PE from such an institute shall be the minimum requirement for issuing license to practise as structural engineer with any local authority.


·         Any unethical behaviour, duly investigated by such an institute and reported to local licensure would result in forfeiting the license to practise structural engineering.


·         In case of a building mishap/collapse -if sought by the structural engineer- such an institute will conduct unbiased technical investigation and give technical opinion on his role, responsibility and faithful performance of duties.





In lieu of above discussions, I request SEFIANs to share their views on  regulating structural engineering profession.



Regards,


Nilesh Shah


E-Conf Moderator

How do we regulate the structural engineering profession?

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JVCSNL
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 159

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear All,

Regulating the structural engineering profession has been discussed in several discussions on this platform.  Following post was shared in one of the e-conference in 2003 and later.  Reproducing again for discussion and review by experts.  I think, we need to go beyond discussing.  It has been 13 years since we debated this issue and I guess, nothing much has moved forward.  Not losing hope, but we need to expedite some of the critical issues affecting quality of citizen's life and safety.  

Regards,

Jignesh V Chokshi

Following post is reproduced:

Hello,

I am reproducing the proposed licensing system, which was posted in earlier e conference (I think it is more relevant in the current e conference).  

However, I would like to add couple of points.  There seems to be a little disagreement on the structure of licensing body and necessity of experience for practice.  I fully agree on the issue, that the veteran and experienced professional could be more sensible to the structural behavior and professional issues than the younger ones.  However, the current state of the art techniques and tools are little better known by the young professionals.  So, the licensing body could be a mixture of both, may be in the proportion of 75% rich experienced + 25% young ones.  

On the requirement of experience part, I believe that the criteria should be the quality of experience and its richness compared to the quantum of experience.  There may be many cases where a professional with 3 years of experience would have much more engineering and professional skills compared to a professional having 15 years of experience of monotonous tasks.  Hence, the spectrum of experience and the portfolio of design varieties could be the criteria for eligibility and justification in providing a practicing license.  

Considering a huge domain of the structural engineering field, a criterion for minimum number of experience (after graduation or post graduation) can not be kept mandatory and instead, the quality of experience shall be measured, considered and accounted while deciding the licensing issues.

Following portion is reproduced
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------
Proposed Licensing System
-------------------------------------------

Since, we structural engineers have variety of projects/assignments to perform, it is extremely difficult task to formulate a licensing system suitable for all existing and future professionals.  The problem would be extremely severe when we ask veteran practicing engineers to get license at the end of their professional career for 2 or 3 decades.  

We want an easy, workable, durable, expert and powerful licensing authority to which we respect and obey.   The licensing practice shall not be a formality procedure.  We need to be very sincere now in this regard to avoid second occurrence of disasters seen after 26th Jan. 2001 earthquake.

I would suggest categorizing the licensing system.  Several major subgroups can be formed for practicing engineers.  The license shall be issued for one or multiple categories.  The selection of category for the license shall be done by individual professional only.  For each sub group there shall be minimum criteria to practice.  The criteria could be education, experience, an examination etc.  The license shall be valid for a stipulated period and must be renewed to justify competency to practice.

I would like to categorize few subgroups for which licenses may be issued:

+    Non Plant Structures * Residential buildings, administration offices, canteen buildings, etc, upto 2 storey

+  Residential and commercial complexes : Structures with more than 4 stories comprising of elevators, HVAC systems, central water and drainage management, security, safety requirements

+  Industrial sheds * This category would cover structural steel storage sheds (with trusses or portals), small crane and monorails, cold storage etc.

+  Industrial structures * Plant Engineering  - This category would allow to design most industrial structures like boilers, power houses, cooling towers, pipe racks and many similar structures subjected to normal, wind and seismic loading

+  Equipment/Machine Foundations * This category would comprise of critical analysis of important equipment foundation needing static and/or dynamic analysis.  Even structures which need detailed and extensive seismic analysis should be listed here.

+  Transportation structures * Bridges, fly-overs, tunnels etc.

+  Hydraulic structures * canals, aqueduct, canal siphons, canal head works,

+  Structures of high importance * Dams, weirs etc.

The coverage of structures in each subgroup needs thorough survey by experts in our profession.  I understand these categories may be increased or reduced in number by team of experts forming licensing body.  These categories could be numbered to identify the type of license.

Everyone would agree that a bridge design engineer would not be interested to get the license to design a residential bungalow and vice-versa.  Thus, I think the categorization would definitely ease the problem for a professional and the licensing authority.  On one hand, the residential structural professional would not be asked to show his/her competence in designing industrial or bridge structures.  

If any one feels, he has two or three expertise to perform he may be issued a license with one or more sub groups and the professional has to justify his/her competence to perform those tasks by means of minimum criteria defined.

I think, the licensing authority must be a team comprising of professionals from government, non-government, private and academic institutions.  They must of known strengths and the selection shall be unbiased.  

Thanks and Regards,

Jignesh Chokshi
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JVCSNL
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other than the suggestions given above, there must be rigorous examination through an independent governing body for allowing structural engineering practices.  The professionals seeking to become structural engineer and practice with pride must have to take pains of learning the fundamentals and professional behavior.  

professional engineering licenses can not be given only based on the degree acquired by engineers or based on experiences.  For better services, there has to be thorough screening process (as done for medical and CA students) and only then this profession can be regulated for benefit of all.  In US also, to acquire a license in a reputed state, one has to go through several years of evening classroom training, followed by a tough examination.

Moreover, this regulation shall not be seen in light of only residential or high rise structures.  I think, many participants on this forum belong to residential and commercial building segment.  We need to go beyond this and look for other areas served by structural engineers.  Probably the number of these engineering professionals may be less, but they contribute to build infrastructure.


Regards,

Jignesh V Chokshi
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narasimhulu
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Joined: 01 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:00 pm    Post subject: [Regulating Profession] - The Way Ahead Reply with quote

Civil engineer / Superior / Dependent person in civil engineering is
have many people in society and all are dependent in civil
engineering. One we found new technology /Design after some period of
time it is out-dated. And same it is very large no of people educated
same and became expert in the field. And further design engineer can
find a new thing which is in growth in technology or as set of new
professional standard to civil engineering.
With Regards,
Tekuri Narasimhulu.


On 2/16/16, JVCSNL <forum@sefindia.org> wrote:
Quote:
Other than the suggestions given above, there must be rigorous examination
through an independent governing body for allowing structural engineering
practices.  The professionals seeking to become structural engineer and
practice with pride must have to take pains of learning the fundamentals and
professional behavior.

professional engineering licenses can not be given only based on the degree
acquired by engineers or based on experiences.  For better services, there
has to be thorough screening process (as done for medical and CA students)
and only then this profession can be regulated for benefit of all.  In US
also, to acquire a license in a reputed state, one has to go through several
years of evening classroom training, followed by a tough examination.

Moreover, this regulation shall not be seen in light of only residential or
high rise structures.  I think, many participants on this forum belong to
residential and commercial building segment.  We need to go beyond this and
look for other areas served by structural engineers.  Probably the number of
these engineering professionals may be less, but they contribute to build
infrastructure.


Regards,

Jignesh V Chokshi









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B.V.Harsoda
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Location: RAJKOT,GUJARAT, INDIA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GUJARAT PROFESSIONAL CIVIL ENGINEERS ACT
In Gujarat, after the 2001 Bhuj earthquake, GDCR in all Municipalities and Municipal Corporations were revised and inclusion of earthquake, wind and fire codes were made mandatory. However, it was found that many buildings including multi-storied buildings were not being constructed as per the building codes. Unless the structural drawings submitted to Municipal Corporations are scrutinized by competent authorities in the Corporations, making stringent provisions in GDCR alone cannot ensure building safety.
An extensive study of prevention and mitigation arrangements made in various countries for the safety of the built environment has revealed that in all advanced countries, they have a provision for licensing of engineers based on competency of engineers. It was therefore felt necessary to have a competency based licensing of engineers for practicing engineers in Gujarat to ensure safety of the built environment. It was also felt necessary to create a separate body which will look into this aspect and provide a legal and regulatory framework.

GSDMA therefore prepared a draft bill titled ‘Gujarat Professional Civil Engineer’s Bill’ after many discussions, workshops and meetings with practicing engineers, engineer’s association and various national and international technical experts. The bill proposes the constitution of a Regulatory Body by the engineers themselves. This Regulatory Body will test the competency of engineers through appropriate examinations and interviews and will certify them.

The Gujarat Professional Civil Engineer’s Bill was passed by the State Legislative Assembly in March 2006, but up till now there is no any progress for implementation of this act in Gujarat

The soft copy of the Act can be downloaded from the link shown below:
The Gujarat Professional Civil Engineers Act, 2006     

Source Link:-

http://www.gsdma.org/policies-acts/gujarat-civil-engineers-act.aspx


Regards,
Er. B. V. Harsoda
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Dr. N. Subramanian
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear All,

I thank Er Harsoda for bringing this Gujarat Professional Civil engg. Act to our attention. Similarly Dr. Yacub Mohan George posted a regulation adopted in Kerala. But I want to know from the engineers of respective states (Gujarat or Kerala) how this kind of Act has affected them and whether there is improvement in their status.



Warm regards,

Subramanian
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pankajshah
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to have my views on ongoing e-conference.

1. End-user of residential units is generally not aware of the role of structural engineer.  We structural engineers should start teaching the importance of engineered construction.

-People should be made aware of the role and importance of geo-tech  engineer, structural engineer,  architect and project management.
-This can be done with free seminars in towns and cities.
- We can use electronic, print and social media also.

-Documents like these can also be prepared for end-user.

http://www.pdma.gov.pk/sites/default/files/Construction%20Guidelines%20for%20Earthquake%20Affected%20Areas_0.pdf
http://www.pdma.gov.pk/sites/default/files/Construction%20Guidelines%20for%20Earthquake%20Affected%20Areas_0.pdf
http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0022/002290/229059E.pdf

2.  By doing so, wecan interact with end-user and make aware them about
- construction mal-practices
- importance of registered engineers and liabilities
- fee structures

3.  Continuing education programs from professional organizations should be offered. Not everything can be included in graduation or post-graduation study.



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pankajshah
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interaction with end-user is must, to avoid situations seen in following pictures:

I believe, structural engineers are not guilty in following cases. But look at the situation.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1116816491695857&set=pcb.1277643615585657&type=3&theater


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=980522742032342&set=pcb.1282097831806902&type=3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1032221346837459&set=pcb.1283158065034212&type=3&theater
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