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[Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India
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alpa_sheth
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An eloquent and insightful mail, Ravi. Thanks for sharing.

regards,
Alpa


[quote="nrk"]In his world’s most watched TED talk titled ‘Do schools kill creativity?’1, Sir Ken Robinson asserts that the whole purpose of public education throughout the world is to produce university professors. He also contends that creativity is as important in education as literacy, and we should treat it with the same status. In structural engineering education, the counterpart to creativity is innovation and the counterpart to literacy is the theory of structural design as per the prevalent national codes of practice.
                             
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svrajagopalan
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:00 am    Post subject: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

i fully endorse Mr Chokshi's views.i like to conduct classes for fresh civil engineers who want  to take up site jobs


s v rajagopalan mob: 9445719900


On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 1:22 PM, JVCSNL <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear All,

This topic is close to many engineer's heart and we will discuss this. We have plenty of ideas to improve this but I presume that we speak from a distant corner and expect someone to improve this.

Who will improve the education? As far as my experience goes, these days, many engineering college civil heads are very junior engineers. Many fresh engineers, teach the subject they studied only a year before. Why is this? Do you expect a great engineer coming out through such system.

How many of talented practicing students and engineers wish to contribute in educating the younger engineers? While reviewing some of the master's thesis, I noticed that students and their guide were not actually knowing what they have done for a full year. Such students come out with flying colors and handful of % marks.

In my opinion, the standard of education as a whole is deteriorating due to couple of reasons.

Though, there is good remuneration in education, the opportunities are less for ambitious engineers. Remuneration at a large is still less compared to many other fields and hence, good candidates won't pursue a noble career of becoming a teacher.

Second, the students interest is not maintained as their teachers are junior and can't teach them in depth. I think, the minimum experience of the teacher shall be 10 years in any practical field before he is inducted to teach.

--

As far as professional practices is concerned, I don't find many forums for structural engineers coming together. If you see other professional like CA, hold regular annual conferences outside their regional body and they debate many issues for common understanding. I know most of the CA attached to that regional body participate with family and they invite key experts. This can happen only if we have only one governing body. The only people who can solve both these issues are some of us, especially the senior staff who can share their experiences and practices to younger lot. Also, there has to be restriction in producing number of structural engineers like doctors and CAs...Any engineer with a degree or diploma shall not be deemed eligible to practice structural engineering unless getting qualified through a set procedure.

Regards,

Jignesh V Chokshi
     



     


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sunil sodhai
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:00 am    Post subject: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

IN MY VIEW WE CIVIL ENGINEER LACK IN TEAM WORK ,ORGANISATION SKILL DUE
TO WHICH WE DONT PROGRESS MUCH WE SHOULD HAVE RESPECT FOR EACH OTHER
EVERYBODY ROLE SHOULD BE DEFINED EVERYBODY SHOULD BE RESPECTED TO BE
IN MARKET YOU HAVE TO BE COMPEITIVE,PROVIDE CUSTOMER SERVICE AND ADD
VALUE TO CUSTOMER THEN YOU WOULD STAY IN MARKET .LOOK SEE HOW IT HAS
TRANSFORMED LIFE OF IT ENGINEERS.GOOD ORGANISATIONS CREATE VLAUE FOR
ALL STAKE HOLDERS SOCIETY,ENGINEERS,GOVT FOR EVERY ONE.WE KNOW HOW
INDIA IS FACING CHALLENGES ON INFRASTRUCTURE SO NO SOCIETY CAN GROW
WITHOUT VALUEING CIVIL ENGINEERS.BUT INDIA IS NOT DEVELOPED COUNTRY
INDIA IS DEVELOPING SO WE ALL CIVIL ENGINEER SHOULD COME TOGETHER FORM
GOOD TEAMS AND HELP EACH OTHER TO COME AND GROW.TO GROW SOCIETY AND
NATION,CHALLENGES OR PROBLEMS TOO MUCH IN INDIA BUT WE HAVE TO HOPE
FOR BETTER FUTURE.

On 2/11/16, alpa_sheth <forum@sefindia.org> wrote:
Quote:
An eloquent and insightful mail, Ravi. Thanks for sharing.

regards,
Alpa


[quote="nrk"]In his world痴 most watched TED talk titled 船o
schools kill creativity?端SUP]1, Sir Ken Robinson asserts that the
whole purpose of public education throughout the world is to produce
university professors. He also contends that creativity is as important in
education as literacy, and we should treat it with the same status. In
structural engineering education, the counterpart to creativity is
innovation and the counterpart to literacy is the theory of structural
design as per the prevalent national codes of practice.

                             
(Truncated)








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indutridibesh
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:38 am    Post subject: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

Yes..that is well said...civil engineering fraternity should come together and support each other in the larger interest of the professionals and society (country) driven by long term goals. A single apex governing  body / association should only be there for the civil engineers of India, guidelines of which should be adhered to by all professionals and practising engineers. Industry academia relation ship and exchange programs should be enforced strongly to develop very good young beginners who can contribute to the profession and society at large.
There are so many ways and ideas but the whole issue is about bringing together the entire fraternity in harmony / sync and resonate to produce enormous response which can bring about the desired changes in the professional attitude/practices of Indian civil engineers. In my opinion, bringing abiut this resonance within the fraternity should be the prime aim and then everything else shall fall in place.
Regards,
Tridibesh Indu On Feb 13, 2016 8:45 AM, "sunil sodhai" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:[quote]            IN MY VIEW WE CIVIL ENGINEER LACK IN TEAM WORK ,ORGANISATION SKILL DUE
TO WHICH WE DONT PROGRESS MUCH WE SHOULD HAVE RESPECT FOR EACH OTHER
EVERYBODY ROLE SHOULD BE DEFINED EVERYBODY SHOULD BE RESPECTED TO BE
IN MARKET YOU HAVE TO BE COMPEITIVE,PROVIDE CUSTOMER SERVICE AND ADD
VALUE TO CUSTOMER THEN YOU WOULD STAY IN MARKET .LOOK SEE HOW IT HAS
TRANSFORMED LIFE OF IT ENGINEERS.GOOD ORGANISATIONS CREATE VLAUE FOR
ALL STAKE HOLDERS SOCIETY,ENGINEERS,GOVT FOR EVERY ONE.WE KNOW HOW
INDIA IS FACING CHALLENGES ON INFRASTRUCTURE SO NO SOCIETY CAN GROW
WITHOUT VALUEING CIVIL ENGINEERS.BUT INDIA IS NOT DEVELOPED COUNTRY
INDIA IS DEVELOPING SO WE ALL CIVIL ENGINEER SHOULD COME TOGETHER FORM
GOOD TEAMS AND HELP EACH OTHER TO COME AND GROW.TO GROW SOCIETY AND
NATION,CHALLENGES OR PROBLEMS TOO MUCH IN INDIA BUT WE HAVE TO HOPE
FOR BETTER FUTURE.

On 2/11/16, alpa_sheth wrote:
      --auto removed--

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chander.pawa
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

Dear Sir,
I agree with you first of all we have to leave the chalta hai! Attitude and need skilled site supervision. The lowest tender should not be the criteria only the tenderer with workable rates should be given the job. Moreover I feel that a practical on site training besides internship under qualified structural designer must be added as a part of curriculum.
Further site inspection & quality certification by the structural designer should also be made compulsory. I would also feel that we also need more quality control laboratories which do their jobs with complete professional manner and honesty.
Thanks





SATYAPAUL wrote:
dear mr.n.prabhakar, you are a learned person with lot of experience in design of structures.i was working with german company in Iraq.what they say.i am reproducing it here.fishermen do not fly aeroplanes,you need trained pilots.by reading a book one can not learn swimming.no country will transfer the latest technology to your country.we have spent years on research work and spend money on it.tell me which country can produce Mercedes Benz like car.engine will not open till it has run 400,000 km.can you run high speed trains.your country is labour supplying country.in our country only few projects like Metro rail is up to the international standard.our country is spending crores on highway construction.all highways will last hardly ten years.There is no rigid quality control.university professors get job by seniority.they do not go to the field for work.work is awarded to the lowest tenderer,with out looking for quality.strcutural engineers are appointed by the architects,who charges minimum.where is the merit recognition.quota system is prevailing for catching votes.recommendations are prominent.concrete shall not be plastered.which project it is not happening.poor quality of shutteinng is used.i do not want to name a minster of another country.what he said i am going to narrate to my fellow engineers.labour and material cost is the same.difference is only on supervision.therefore for little extra we employ european engineers not indian.our engineers work like babus.junior engineers are only supervising the jobs.in the international market,no country wants to give the job to Indian contractors.no shop drawings are produced by the contractor and certified by the structural engineers.total setup right from design to implementation is to be overhauled.Government is not going to help.only private industry and the employer can help.compare the quality of bridges in india and USA and eurpoe.even parapet wall is geometrically not matching.up and downs can be noticed.strcutural engineers can ensure correct design,but who will implement them.country's image is what we produce.made in idia goods are not preferred over european produced goods. please take criticism on healthy spirit.concerted effort is required at all levels.please excuse me if i have heart any one.character of a nation is more important.every citizen is interested to make money by hook and crook.poor quality cheap goods from china have flooded our country.Business houses too get chinese goods manufactured in their company name.My experience is unless leaders are willing to improve,nothing is possible. regards satya paul  On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 00:59:15 +0530 "N. Prabhakar"  wrote >                   Dear Sefians, >  > There is a general complaint by structural engineering consultancy firms that fresh graduates coming out of our present day engineering colleges, including IITs, are not up to the mark, and require further training to be given for few months to make them useful to the firm. >  > Complaints of this sort are no doubt genuine, but in my opinion, this can be sorted out with the inter-action of academics and the practicing structural engineers. I would like to suggest the following on this matter: >  > 1. Colleges should invite practicing structural engineers periodically to give lectures on case studies of actual projects carried out by them, with reference to methods of structural analysis adopted, the codes of practice used, and presentation of detail drawings prepared by them for the project. >  > 2. The degree course curriculum should include a topic on structural behaviour of various types of structures in reinforced concrete and structural steel under different combinations of loads, both overall and local, as it would help in designing the structural elements and connection of joints, etc. >  > 3. The degree course curriculum should include the topic on the use of current codes of practice for reinforced concrete and structural steel as structural elements. >  > 4. The degree course curriculum should also include preparation and checking of detail drawings for reinforced concrete and structural steel work, as these are done in practice. >  > The above curriculum may not even carry additional marks to the present evaluation of passing the degree course, but it would certainly enrich the student's knowledge on the practical aspect of structural engineering, if they are really interested to pursue their career in this field. >  > With the above suggestion, I am sure that the fresh graduates would be immediately useful to the consulting firms they are employed. >  > With best wishes, >  > N. Prabhakar > Chartered Structural Engineer > Vasai (E), Pin 401 208       > >  >  > --

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hashim008professional
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Joined: 25 Feb 2014
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Location: kochi

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think all practicing engineers should make out time to teach the upcoming engineers.The structural engineering bodies should ensure it by making its memebers compulsory involvement in the educational activities a few hr per week....It will help the upcoming engineers to the know real practical cases they are going to face in the industry while it help the practicing engineers to upgrade the recent advances and theoretical knowledge....a real symbiotic relationship...I urge IAStructE AND sefi for this cause.....Fazlur Khan who is called the Einstein of Structural Engineering made innovative structural system suited the need of hour by opting this strategy....He used to teach the Architectural students and guide them in their thesis work....same with William F Backer who found out proper structural system for Burj Khalifa....SOM, the leading structural firm provide platform for their engineers to update their knowledge and have strong internship programs....Leading structural firms in our country also should follow this path.....The Art in structural design should be more focused upon by the institute than the scientific part....So that more people get interested to this profession.....History should be given more weight, the path of the development of codal provisions should be given more preferences than the codal provisions....
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hashim008professional
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My master's thesis is titled "Creativity and Innovation in Structural Design"....I am hereby attaching my thesis report....I think it will be a beneficial one for those who is following this topic


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hashim008professional
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are some of my recommendations related to this topic

Recommendations on skill development in educational institues and professional firms

The creative skill development of the engineers are influenced by their educational background and formative years of their career . Educational institutes and professional firms plays an important role in this respect.

1) Along with regular focus on analytical and dimensioning part of structural design, the educational institutes should concentrate more on developing conceptual and creative aspects of engineering. Professional firms should also focus on developing conceptual level thinking of young engineers and trainees rather than emphasizing on analysis.

2) Along with the design part educational institutes should focus on imparting knowledge to students on material behaviour and structural behaviour of different forms and relating design with the construction process. Physical model making and testing along with experimentation in material should be given emphasis and encouraged. Exposure to construction practices should be ensured within the regular curriculum. Professional firms should encourage young engineers to have exposure on constructional practices and relating it with their design.

3) Interaction between engineering students with architectural professionals and students should be ensured. Design studio should focus on conceptual design and interaction between architects. Emphasis should be given on team work rather than individual work. Professional firms should give good working environment in which young engineers are able to communicate freely with the experienced engineers as well as the architects and giving opportunity to express their creative ideas. Professional firms could also compliment training studio with their regular projects.

4) Structural criticism of various structures, analogous to architectural criticism should be developed to improve the analytical capabilities and better understanding of structural behavior. Professional firms should continuously evaluate the young engineers’ work and give them critical appraisal.


5) History of Art of engineering should be considered in the curriculum by studying the innovative engineers and by tracing the development of theoretical concepts and code provisions. Professional firms should encourage the young engineers to appraise the code provisions with design and construction problems related to the new projects.
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namdev_warade
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:00 am    Post subject: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

IN NASIK DISTRICT,ENGINEERING COLLEGES GO ON SEARCH OF GETTING
STUDENTS FOR ENGINEERING ADMISSIONS.TRULY THOSE WHO ARE NOT
PRACTICALLY OR MERITORIOUSLY ELIGIBLE ARE GETTING ADMISSIONS IN
COLLEGES.COLLEGES PARTICULARLY SHATABDI ETC. DETERIORATED THE THINGS
HERE.THE MOST DANGEROUS THING IS THE CHARACTERLESS PEOPLE OPENING THE
COLLEGES.NO. OF COLLEGES ARE HERE WHICH HAVE BEEN OPENED BY THE
CHARACTERLESS PEOPLE.SO FIRST THING OPENING COLLEGES BY THESE PEOPLE
SHOULD TOTALLY BANNED.ALL THEY HAVE CORRUPT,NON-ENGINEERING BACKGROUND
OR ILLETERATE AND BAD CHARACTERS,THEY DAMAGED THE ENGINEERING
REPUTATION LOT.IN ONE CASE A POLYTECHNIC OPENED BY ONCE UPON A TIME A
THIEF.COLLEGE OPENER MUST HAVE QUALITY TEST INFACT.THINK UPON IT.
NAMDEV WARADE
PROFESSIONAL CIVIL ENGINEER
ME-civil structures,MBAinternational
business,LLMcivil,criminal,business laws,&cyber,MSC hotel &
tourism,MJMC journalism,print&new media,BApolitical science.

On 2/14/16, chander.pawa <forum@sefindia.org> wrote:
Quote:
Dear Sir,
I agree with you first of all we have to leave the chalta hai! Attitude and
need skilled site supervision. The lowest tender should not be the criteria
only the tenderer with workable rates should be given the job. Moreover I
feel that a practical on site training besides internship under qualified
structural designer must be added as a part of curriculum.
Further site inspection & quality certification by the structural designer
should also be made compulsory. I would also feel that we also need more
quality control laboratories which do their jobs with complete professional
manner and honesty.
Thanks






SATYAPAUL wrote:
Quote:
dear mr.n.prabhakar, you are a learned person with lot of experience in
design of structures.i was working with german company in Iraq.what they
say.i am reproducing it here.fishermen do not fly aeroplanes,you need
trained pilots.by reading a book one can not learn swimming.no country
will transfer the latest technology to your country.we have spent years on
research work and spend money on it.tell me which country can produce
Mercedes Benz like car.engine will not open till it has run 400,000 km.can
you run high speed trains.your country is labour supplying country.in our
country only few projects like Metro rail is up to the international
standard.our country is spending crores on highway construction.all
highways will last hardly ten years.There is no rigid quality
control.university professors get job by seniority.they do not go to the
field for work.work is awarded to the lowest tenderer,with out looking for
quality.strcutural engineers are appointed by the architects,who charges
minimum.where is the merit recognition.quota system is prevailing for
catching votes.recommendations are prominent.concrete shall not be
plastered.which project it is not happening.poor quality of shutteinng is
used.i do not want to name a minster of another country.what he said i am
going to narrate to my fellow engineers.labour and material cost is the
same.difference is only on supervision.therefore for little extra we
employ european engineers not indian.our engineers work like babus.junior
engineers are only supervising the jobs.in the international market,no
country wants to give the job to Indian contractors.no shop drawings are
produced by the contractor and certified by the structural engineers.total
setup right from design to implementation is to be overhauled.Government
is not going to help.only private industry and the employer can
help.compare the quality of bridges in india and USA and eurpoe.even
parapet wall is geometrically not matching.up and downs can be
noticed.strcutural engineers can ensure correct design,but who will
implement them.country's image is what we produce.made in idia goods are
not preferred over european produced goods. please take criticism on
healthy spirit.concerted effort is required at all levels.please excuse me
if i have heart any one.character of a nation is more important.every
citizen is interested to make money by hook and crook.poor quality cheap
goods from china have flooded our country.Business houses too get chinese
goods manufactured in their company name.My experience is unless leaders
are willing to improve,nothing is possible. regards satya paul  On Thu, 11
Feb 2016 00:59:15 +0530 "N. Prabhakar"  wrote >                   Dear Sefians, >  >
There is a general complaint by structural engineering consultancy firms
that fresh graduates coming out of our present day engineering colleges,
including IITs, are not up to the mark, and require further training to be
given for few months to make them useful to the firm. >  > Complaints of
this sort are no doubt genuine, but in my opinion, this can be sorted out
with the inter-action of academics and the practicing structural
engineers. I would like to suggest the following on this matter: >  > 1.
Colleges should invite practicing structural engineers periodically to
give lectures on case studies of actual projects carried out by them, with
reference to methods of structural analysis adopted, the codes of practice
used, and presentation of detail drawings prepared by them for the
project. >  > 2. The degree course curriculum should include a topic on
structural behaviour of various types of structures in reinforced concrete
and structural steel under different combinations of loads, both overall
and local, as it would help in designing the structural elements and
connection of joints, etc. >  > 3. The degree course curriculum should
include the topic on the use of current codes of practice for reinforced
concrete and structural steel as structural elements. >  > 4. The degree
course curriculum should also include preparation and checking of detail
drawings for reinforced concrete and structural steel work, as these are
done in practice. >  > The above curriculum may not even carry additional
marks to the present evaluation of passing the degree course, but it would
certainly enrich the student's knowledge on the practical aspect of
structural engineering, if they are really interested to pursue their
career in this field. >  > With the above suggestion, I am sure that the
fresh graduates would be immediately useful to the consulting firms they
are employed. >  > With best wishes, >  > N. Prabhakar > Chartered
Structural Engineer > Vasai (E), Pin 401 208       > >  >  > --










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diwakar bhagat
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Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:00 pm    Post subject: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

How do we ensure that quality as per drawings is achieved at site. What are the parameters we control, can we control this by a disclaimer in our drawings ý. If yes, then there is a series and set of disclaimer I can share.


Regards


Diwakar bhagat

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
From: chander.pawa
Sent: Sunday, 14 February 2016 15:27
To: econf@sefindia.org
Reply To: econf@sefindia.org
Subject: {E-CONF2016} Re: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India



Dear Sir,
I agree with you first of all we have to leave the chalta hai! Attitude and need skilled site supervision. The lowest tender should not be the criteria only the tenderer with workable rates should be given the job. Moreover I feel that a practical on site training besides internship under qualified structural designer must be added as a part of curriculum.
Further site inspection & quality certification by the structural designer should also be made compulsory. I would also feel that we also need more quality control laboratories which do their jobs with complete professional manner and honesty.
Thanks





SATYAPAUL wrote:   dear mr.n.prabhakar, you are a learned person with lot of experience in design of structures.i was working with german company in Iraq.what they say.i am reproducing it here.fishermen do not fly aeroplanes,you need trained pilots.by reading a book one can not learn swimming.no country will transfer the latest technology to your country.we have spent years on research work and spend money on it.tell me which country can produce Mercedes Benz like car.engine will not open till it has run 400,000 km.can you run high speed trains.your country is labour supplying country.in our country only few projects like Metro rail is up to the international standard.our country is spending crores on highway construction.all highways will last hardly ten years.There is no rigid quality control.university professors get job by seniority.they do not go to the field for work.work is awarded to the lowest tenderer,with out looking for quality.strcutural engineers are appointed by the architects,who charges minimum.where is the merit recognition.quota system is prevailing for catching votes.recommendations are prominent.concrete shall not be plastered.which project it is not happening.poor quality of shutteinng is used.i do not want to name a minster of another country.what he said i am going to narrate to my fellow engineers.labour and material cost is the same.difference is only on supervision.therefore for little extra we employ european engineers not indian.our engineers work like babus.junior engineers are only supervising the jobs.in the international market,no country wants to give the job to Indian contractors.no shop drawings are produced by the contractor and certified by the structural engineers.total setup right from design to implementation is to be overhauled.Government is not going to help.only private industry and the employer can help.compare the quality of bridges in india and USA and eurpoe.even parapet wall is geometrically not matching.up and downs can be noticed.strcutural engineers can ensure correct design,but who will implement them.country's image is what we produce.made in idia goods are not preferred over european produced goods. please take criticism on healthy spirit.concerted effort is required at all levels.please excuse me if i have heart any one.character of a nation is more important.every citizen is interested to make money by hook and crook.poor quality cheap goods from china have flooded our country.Business houses too get chinese goods manufactured in their company name.My experience is unless leaders are willing to improve,nothing is possible. regards satya paul On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 00:59:15 +0530 "N. Prabhakar" wrote > Dear Sefians, > > There is a general complaint by structural engineering consultancy firms that fresh graduates coming out of our present day engineering colleges, including IITs, are not up to the mark, and require further training to be given for few months to make them useful to the firm. > > Complaints of this sort are no doubt genuine, but in my opinion, this can be sorted out with the inter-action of academics and the practicing structural engineers. I would like to suggest the following on this matter: > > 1. Colleges should invite practicing structural engineers periodically to give lectures on case studies of actual projects carried out by them, with reference to methods of structural analysis adopted, the codes of practice used, and presentation of detail drawings prepared by them for the project. > > 2. The degree course curriculum should include a topic on structural behaviour of various types of structures in reinforced concrete and structural steel under different combinations of loads, both overall and local, as it would help in designing the structural elements and connection of joints, etc. > > 3. The degree course curriculum should include the topic on the use of current codes of practice for reinforced concrete and structural steel as structural elements. > > 4. The degree course curriculum should also include preparation and checking of detail drawings for reinforced concrete and structural steel work, as these are done in practice. > > The above curriculum may not even carry additional marks to the present evaluation of passing the degree course, but it would certainly enrich the student's knowledge on the practical aspect of structural engineering, if they are really interested to pursue their career in this field. > > With the above suggestion, I am sure that the fresh graduates would be immediately useful to the consulting firms they are employed. > > With best wishes, > > N. Prabhakar > Chartered Structural Engineer > Vasai (E), Pin 401 208 > > > > --

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