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[Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India
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dipak_bhattacharya
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:00 pm    Post subject: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

Dear Mr. Hashim,
It looks like you are working either in a Govt. Organisation or in an educational institution.
In a private consulting company (which are biggest employers in totality), engineers are working under the CCD cameras, where every minute counts. No employer wants his senior engineers 'waste' time by reading technical journals or by so called'training' his juniors.
There is other side of it. Private Consulting Companies have to win jobs through tenders only, by submitting substandard /unworkable rates, employ engineers with substandard salary and ,as a result, have to struggle with high attrition rates of the employee. The maladies are deep rooted and all depend on the precarious unemployment situation of the country. Of course now, the situation is not better anywhere  globally! What is the use in giving training? The trained hand will quit the company at the earliest opportunity. This is the result of present day privatisation.
Thanks.
On 14 Feb 2016 15:44, "hashim008professional" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           I think all practicing engineers should make out time to teach the upcoming engineers.The structural engineering bodies should ensure it by making its memebers compulsory involvement in the educational activities a few hr per week....It will help the upcoming engineers to the know real practical cases they are going to face in the industry while it help the practicing engineers to upgrade the recent advances and theoretical knowledge....a real symbiotic relationship...I urge IAStructE AND sefi for this cause.....Fazlur Khan who is called the Einstein of Structural Engineering made innovative structural system suited the need of hour by opting this strategy....He used to teach the Architectural students and guide them in their thesis work....same with William F Backer who found out proper structural system for Burj Khalifa....SOM, the leading structural firm provide platform for their engineers to update their knowledge and have strong internship programs....Leading structural firms in our country also should follow this path.....The Art in structural design should be more focused upon by the institute than the scientific part....So that more people get interested to this profession.....History should be given more weight, the path of the development of codal provisions should be given more preferences than the codal provisions....
     



     


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ajay2612
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:00 pm    Post subject: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

Agree sir.

From: "namdev_warade"forum@sefindia.org
Sent:Sun, 14 Feb 2016 16:40:46 +0530
To: econf@sefindia.org
Subject: {E-CONF2016} Re: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India
           IN NASIK DISTRICT,ENGINEERING COLLEGES GO ON SEARCH OF GETTING
[quote]STUDENTS FOR ENGINEERING ADMISSIONS.TRULY THOSE WHO ARE NOT
PRACTICALLY OR MERITORIOUSLY ELIGIBLE ARE GETTING ADMISSIONS IN
COLLEGES.COLLEGES PARTICULARLY SHATABDI ETC. DETERIORATED THE THINGS
HERE.THE MOST DANGEROUS THING IS THE CHARACTERLESS PEOPLE OPENING THE
COLLEGES.NO. OF COLLEGES ARE HERE WHICH HAVE BEEN OPENED BY THE
CHARACTERLESS PEOPLE.SO FIRST THING OPENING COLLEGES BY THESE PEOPLE
SHOULD TOTALLY BANNED.ALL THEY HAVE CORRUPT,NON-ENGINEERING BACKGROUND
OR ILLETERATE AND BAD CHARACTERS,THEY DAMAGED THE ENGINEERING
REPUTATION LOT.IN ONE CASE A POLYTECHNIC OPENED BY ONCE UPON A TIME A
THIEF.COLLEGE OPENER MUST HAVE QUALITY TEST INFACT.THINK UPON IT.
NAMDEV WARADE
PROFESSIONAL CIVIL ENGINEER
ME-civil structures,MBAinternational
business,LLMcivil,criminal,business laws,&cyber,MSC hotel &
tourism,MJMC journalism,print&new media,BApolitical science.

On 2/14/16, chander.pawa  wrote:
      --auto removed--

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francis chacko
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:00 pm    Post subject: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

Dear members
The experienced structural engineers of any consulting firm should devote some time to train freshers irrespective of any personal benefits.Then only we can get good structural engineers for future  
francis  On 14 Feb 2016 21:07, "dipak_bhattacharya" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:[quote]            Dear Mr. Hashim,
It looks like you are working either in a Govt. Organisation or in an educational institution.
In a private consulting company (which are biggest employers in totality), engineers are working under the CCD cameras, where every minute counts. No employer wants his senior engineers 'waste' time by reading technical journals or by so called'training' his juniors.
There is other side of it. Private Consulting Companies have to win jobs through tenders only, by submitting substandard /unworkable rates, employ engineers with substandard salary and ,as a result, have to struggle with high attrition rates of the employee. The maladies are deep rooted and all depend on the precarious unemployment situation of the country. Of course now, the situation is not better anywhere  globally! What is the use in giving training? The trained hand will quit the company at the earliest opportunity. This is the result of present day privatisation.
Thanks.
On 14 Feb 2016 15:44, "hashim008professional" forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:       --auto removed--

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Rohinton Bhathena
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:00 pm    Post subject: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

100 %  correct sir.
Manufactured Steel Props for 30 years. Submitted calculations to consultants and faced no problem. Then tried to sell my client's product to Germany. Took me 2 years to prove that the calculations were ok. Only about 5% manufacturers will pass the test. That much emphasis is on safety in the West.
All this costs money, which our contractor will not pay. A dead worker costs less. That is the problem.
R Bhathena  On 11-Feb-2016 8:21 pm, "SATYAPAUL" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           dear mr.n.prabhakar, you are a learned person with lot of experience in design of structures.i was working with german company in Iraq.what they say.i am reproducing it here.fishermen do not fly aeroplanes,you need trained pilots.by reading a book one can not learn swimming.no country will transfer the latest technology to your country.we have spent years on research work and spend money on it.tell me which country can produce Mercedes Benz like car.engine will not open till it has run 400,000 km.can you run high speed trains.your country is labour supplying country.in our country only few projects like Metro rail is up to the international standard.our country is spending crores on highway construction.all highways will last hardly ten years.There is no rigid quality control.university professors get job by seniority.they do not go to the field for work.work is awarded to the lowest tenderer,with out looking for quality.strcutural engineers are appointed by the architects,who charges minimum.where is the merit recognition.quota system is prevailing for catching votes.recommendations are prominent.concrete shall not be plastered.which project it is not happening.poor quality of shutteinng is used.i do not want to name a minster of another country.what he said i am going to narrate to my fellow engineers.labour and material cost is the same.difference is only on supervision.therefore for little extra we employ european engineers not indian.our engineers work like babus.junior engineers are only supervising the jobs.in the international market,no country wants to give the job to Indian contractors.no shop drawings are produced by the contractor and certified by the structural engineers.total setup right from design to implementation is to be overhauled.Government is not going to help.only private industry and the employer can help.compare the quality of bridges in india and USA and eurpoe.even parapet wall is geometrically not matching.up and downs can be noticed.strcutural engineers can ensure correct design,but who will implement them.country's image is what we produce.made in idia goods are not preferred over european produced goods. please take criticism on healthy spirit.concerted effort is required at all levels.please excuse me if i have heart any one.character of a nation is more important.every citizen is interested to make money by hook and crook.poor quality cheap goods from china have flooded our country.Business houses too get chinese goods manufactured in their company name.My experience is unless leaders are willing to improve,nothing is possible. regards satya paul On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 00:59:15 +0530 "N. Prabhakar" wrote >            Dear Sefians, > > There is a general complaint by structural engineering consultancy firms that fresh graduates coming out of our present day engineering colleges, including IITs, are not up to the mark, and require further training to be given for few months to make them useful to the firm. > > Complaints of this sort are no doubt genuine, but in my opinion, this can be sorted out with the inter-action of academics and the practicing structural engineers. I would like to suggest the following on this matter: > > 1. Colleges should invite practicing structural engineers periodically to give lectures on case studies of actual projects carried out by them, with reference to methods of structural analysis adopted, the codes of practice used, and presentation of detail drawings prepared by them for the project. > > 2. The degree course curriculum should include a topic on structural behaviour of various types of structures in reinforced concrete and structural steel under different combinations of loads, both overall and local, as it would help in designing the structural elements and connection of joints, etc. > > 3. The degree course curriculum should include the topic on the use of current codes of practice for reinforced concrete and structural steel as structural elements. > > 4. The degree course curriculum should also include preparation and checking of detail drawings for reinforced concrete and structural steel work, as these are done in practice. > > The above curriculum may not even carry additional marks to the present evaluation of passing the degree course, but it would certainly enrich the student's knowledge on the practical aspect of structural engineering, if they are really interested to pursue their career in this field. > > With the above suggestion, I am sure that the fresh graduates would be immediately useful to the consulting firms they are employed. > > With best wishes, > > N. Prabhakar > Chartered Structural Engineer > Vasai (E), Pin 401 208       > > > > --
     



     



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shivsanthosh_damodharan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A STUDENTSPERSPECTIVE<o></o>
Hello to all the esteemed engineers present in this forum. It’smy privilege to voice my opinion amongst you. Please correct me if I am wrongas I have very limited experience. All the views that I am providing is basedon my experience.
I do agree that I didnot have the strong basics when I graduated from my BE. The reasons are asfollows
<if>·       <endif>We study any subject thought to us in undergradwithout applying any physical meaning to it. Any problem that is given to usshould be based on practical field situation so that our understanding of theproblem becomes better. The university should work with the companies inproducing a good assessment of the students. The assessment by the university issolely based on who can remember more formulae rather then analytical thinkingwhich I think is essential for profession

<if>·       <endif>Since our field is experienced based, most ofthe places I applied to for a job after graduating required a min of 2 years ofexperience. How could a student get a experience if he is not exposed to the industry.Government should make it mandatory for companies to provide internship tostudents. This way a student can be exposed to the industry. The problem I facedwas my semester break was too short to be able to do an internship.

<if>·       <endif>Nowadays it is essential to know the use ofsoftware for any engineering application. I was able to learn the quick use ofthese software. The problem I faced was with the idealization of different elementand interpretation of results. There are centers to teach student how to useany software in the market but not to teach how to interpret these results.

I would like to conclude bysaying that if the industry needs quality engineers they have to make someeffort and get involved in training of the student.

I am doing my Masters in Civil Engineering (Structural)at <st1><st1>McGill</st1> <st1>University</st1></st1> and I feel I getting equippedfor the industry now. Thank you for providing a platform for voicing my opinion

Regards,


       SHIVSANTHOSH DAMODHARAN
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rupen
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:00 pm    Post subject: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

Dear SEFIans:

Since the beginning of the e-conference, many of you have written on the subject of “education”. Rather, you have expressed disappointment, frustration, and even anger, on the issue of current state of education in Structural Engineering in the country. It was necessary to do so before we could collectively think of deliverables to improve the situation. Let us do that this week.

To begin with, let us now focus on what we can do rather than spending our time and energy discussing what Government, AICTE, Universities should do, why lack of infrastructure, etc. Few suggestions have already been made, and here is an attempt to highlight key issues to take the discussion forward.

On the issue of industry complaining about poor quality of fresh graduates: Yes, they are right, the quality is bad. There are no two opinions about it. But, two additional issues are also worth taking note of. First, in the good old days, there used to be a compulsory “Industrial Training” as part of BE/BTech curriculum, which most of us would agree, was very useful. It gave the aspiring engineer an opportunity to see the exciting world of structural engineering practice, meet senior engineers, develop contacts, and above all, feel inspired about the prospect of being part of the system. Is this happening today as well? And second, today those who say that the fresh graduates know nothing, can they pledge their honor and say that when they joined the industry as fresh graduates, they knew everything? Were they not groomed to be what they are today by their seniors? Again, is this happening today as well?

In the recent past, the reality is that industrial training has become a farce in most companies. Students are made to sit and develop spreadsheets or simply thrown to construction sites, both without proper guidance and supervision. Because of “cut-throat competition in the market”, senior engineers do not have time to spend with these trainee students. Further, after joining, a fresh graduate is expected to immediately start “producing drawings” – the best guidance on offer is “look up what we did for the previous project and use it as a mother”, meaning copy and reproduce what was done before. It comes as a shock for most fresh graduates and shatters their dreams. And, after this, we expect them to be ethical in their conduct in future!

So, can this situation be changed a bit? Can companies step forward and take charge, and offer meaningful grooming of trainee students and fresh graduates? Yes, there are some companies who do practice this, but surely that number is too small. Can we have more voluntary participation?


Next, on the issue of appropriate curriculum: Some top institutes undertake curriculum revision, probably once in a decade or so. Some also do request input from industry. While the general perception is that this exercise is futile in that they have only helped dilute the curriculum till now, still, can this opportunity be used to the advantage? Every top executive of a company today is an alumnus/alumna of an engineering college/institute/university. Is it possible for them to re-establish contact with their alma-mater and impress upon them the need to have a proper curriculum in place as the first step? Is it possible for the industry to “dictate” what ought to there in the curriculum, not just for their immediate gain alone, but for betterment of the profession in the long run too? Of course, there will be resistance from the academia. So in return, industry may have to promise, possibly recruitment or something, but still, is this a possibility in the future? Also, with this partnership in place, will it not be easy for the industry to engage with academia more in terms of providing ideas of meaningful practical projects, special courses, etc.? Even the idea of joint guidance of projects can be pushed forward. Only, it will require “time” from the industry, which is critical no doubt. But, can industry afford to offer that to help academia? For a change, can industry take the lead?

With warm regards…
Rupen Goswami

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abhio
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prof Goswami is absolutely right in stating that we were no Eiffels and Brunels when we first entered the field. However, I would like to say that we were painfully aware of the fact, and entered our first jobs as if entering just another college - eager and willing to learn. We didn't think that our education was complete on receiving a paper degree from University.

We were also well aware that our productivity initially was near nil, and we didn't seek a productive engineer's salary at the outset.

Then again, all seniors as well as most of my contemporaries have been fortunate enough to graduate before the mushrooming of private engineering colleges, where the level of education is frankly atrocious. We have been fortunate in our teachers and in our mentors in various jobs.

Today I too try my best to impart whatever knowledge I can to my employees, and I received my reward when an ex-employee sent me a message of thanks on Guru Poornima.

I would urge all seniors to mentor their juniors too, it is a very rewarding experience.

Thanks and regards,

_________________
A S Oundhakar,
Principal Engineer,
Invictus Consultancy Services,
Mumbai
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear All,

With regard to curriculum revision, I guess, nothing much can be changed.  We must note here that the structural engineering subjects are only a subset of entire civil engineering curriculum.  

I would like to bring 3 distinct topics in this post for discussion:

A. Curriculum, basics of engineering in education and education duration

The subjects which I studied 28 years back are still relevant as they are primarily taught still today is to give fundamentals of mechanics and strength of material.  Moreover, it is imperative to know the basic theorems of structural analysis before we learn matrix methods, which are used on computers.  

The fundamental problem, I guess is that students are taught these methods forcibly by the teachers and not with an aim to bring interest in such fundamentals.  May be teachers are also telling that the students are taught things which they will never apply in the field.  hence, the students aim to learn computer programs even in their third or fourth semester. Sometimes, they feel privileged to have access to such program and their learning on the same.  

I would like to know, which subjects are outdated or shall be removed from curriculum. Alternatively, I would like to understand which are the new subjects that are required to be included.  

I also have a question, do we need to increase the education from 4 years to 5 years?  

B. Student's attitude

One thing I observed while working with fresh students of US, Germany and korea, is that the students in their college spend good amount of time in educating themselves in subjects which will shape their life and career. These students have spent good amount of time solving unique problems given by their professors, raised doubts, prepared charts for better understanding and retained their class notes. Do we see similar attitude by our students?

Our students will copy the notes or will get "material" from seniors and will read for getting marks. They have more time to celebrate various days and festivals and cultural programs. But, they have little time to debate or discuss some core principles and application of knowledge. Our students seems to be trained and not educated. It is disheartening to see quality of fundamentals in engineers.

Moreover, we all must be a student for life.  Professionals have to learn everyday and shall not be satisfied with individual awareness. I think, the students after their college feel that their education or learning is over and need not spend time to learn deeper or wider.

I would like to cite here that, looking at the level of fundamentals of fresh and relatively experienced engineers and with an aim to share the knowledge and experience with them, I started sessions with my 50+ engineers. I used to conduct two hour sessions on a given topic. The topic was declared a week before and questions from the users were invited. In the session, we used to discuss the question, answers with respect to fundamentals of engineering and sharing of practices/experience. To my surprise after about 8 such sessions, that everyone was listening, but no one was noting.  After leaving the training hall, engineers did not applied what they learned, they did what they new before, because they did not noted their learning.

I think, this calls for a basic learning curve modification right from childhood and it can't be taught at the adult level education. parents and secondary school teachers shall move from scoring champions to learned champions.

C. Quality of education material

I presume that most teachers taught what they taught a decade before.  Also, in B tech schools, the reference books that are referred are of poor quality with lot of bugs and lack of fundamentals.  I have always admired books of foreign origin as it had more fundamentals and less of "solved problems", which is contrary to books by our authors.  

Additionally, the teachers don't change much their questions to entire class.  The whole class is given same assignment and once a student solves the problem, others copy the same.  I guess, each student shall be given unique problem to ensure that his fundamentals are clear in the subjects studied.  I understand that it will add huge burden on teacher, but it can be solved in different way.  It is imperative that a student must learn in his/her way but through a unique problem he/she is asked to solve.  Not by reading poor books or copying the journals and classnotes of fellow students.  This has to change in India if we want to have "educated" engineer.  Else, we will continue to have a trained engineer with a hat that he/she know adequate to practice for life.  

Just few pointers for extending the discussion.  

Regards,

Jignesh V Chokshi
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rupen
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:55 pm    Post subject: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

Dear SEFIans:

There seems to be an undercurrent to suggest that there is a need to revamp Structural Engineering curriculum. Why not we explore that for a bit? While quality of teaching is something we cannot change overnight, proposing a fresh curriculum is certainly possible.

To begin with, let us not start listing what should be there. More or less, we know the curricula of various good institutes/universities, including the curriculum we as students have gone though. But, keeping in mind the changing needs of the profession, let us first list what should not be missed out from the curriculum, and then add new ideas. Then, we can compile these together to come up with a comprehensive curriculum for the future that will help the profession.

Shall we?
Rupen Goswami

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rajatpatel
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 4:00 pm    Post subject: [Education] State of Education in Civil (Structural) Engineering in India Reply with quote

I agreed ...it will be guide for every indivisual for at leat knew the basic principle.Before coming to professional design by 100% reliable with software.


Best of luck sir On 16 Feb 2016 19:27, "rupen" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear SEFIans:

There seems to be an undercurrent to suggest that there is a need to revamp Structural Engineering curriculum. Why not we explore that for a bit? While quality of teaching is something we cannot change overnight, proposing a fresh curriculum is certainly possible.

To begin with, let us not start listing what should be there. More or less, we know the curricula of various good institutes/universities, including the curriculum we as students have gone though. But, keeping in mind the changing needs of the profession, let us first list what should not be missed out from the curriculum, and then add new ideas. Then, we can compile these together to come up with a comprehensive curriculum for the future that will help the profession.

Shall we?
Rupen Goswami
     



     



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