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[Quality of Services] of Structural Engineers and the conflicted Architect -Structural Engineer relationship
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PRASAD.S
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Joined: 12 Oct 2012
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:00 pm    Post subject: [Quality of Services] of Structural Engineers and the conflicted Architect -Structural Engineer relationship Reply with quote

Dear sir ,
This is Sam civil engineering graduate last 2014 , I need ur advise how I get licence certificate (FE,PE)?
Currently working in J&P Saudi as a site engineer..

Mail I'd: samprasad.sivaprakasam@Gmail.com
Phone :+966557129413

Pls advise me .....

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James_Cohen
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:00 pm    Post subject: [Quality of Services] of Structural Engineers and the conflicted Architect -Structural Engineer relationship Reply with quote

Would it cost so much for the profession to broadcast their message to the general public?
James S. Cohen P.E.
Senior Vice President
Thornton Tomasetti

40 Wall Street
New York, NY 10005-1304
T +1.212.367.3000 F +1.212.497.2488
D +1.212.367.2988 M +1.917.733.0204
JCohen@ThorntonTomasetti.com (JCohen@ThorntonTomasetti.com)
www.ThorntonTomasetti.com

From: rejizac [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 10:28 AM
To: econf@sefindia.org
Subject: {E-CONF2016} Re: [Quality of Services] of Structural Engineers and the conflicted Architect -Structural Engineer relationship



Dear all,

It is sad to note that the quality of civil engineering practised in the country is reducing day by day in all areas of construction. We are ourselves to be blamed and we ourselves can make it right. After touching and integrating many of these aspects in my career, let me put down some points..

First of all, the seniors among us are to be blamed seriously for not considering anything to change the trend in the last 40 years. Before that engineers managed the construction fully. The next generation off loaded the responsibility of construction to many other hands like, Architects, Builders etc.

As we only are responsible for life, we need to take control. Now you would say there is no law in the land to put it that way. Actually we are law makers ourselves, as we control the construction through many instruction in the general notes we give along with the drawings. Now Sefi may introduce a common general notes or our constitution which is to be followed in all sites through these drawings. For example, Constitution/law do not give parking spaces for auto rikshas or taxi. They fix it themselves and no body is going to complain about that when there is strong common sense behind these. We should act in the same way. Let us make our own laws and implement it too. Nobody else is going to understand or support you.

Another important point is that you don't let others to do the work you are supposed to do. What they do is, they get the works done by different engineers and they just assemble it together with out knowing the subjects like in a post office. We design engineers, planning engineers, estimation engineers, quality control engineers, site engineers all work for them. He gets paid but you are not. Public never understands what the engineers do as they only see the other faces. You need to deal with public and get the works directly. You can do this much faster and efficiently. If at all client wants cosmetic or functionality you get an architect to work for you on that project. After practising most topics in civil engineering including structral design, detailing, software development, erp software, estimation, geotechnical, planning, construction management and architecture I think the last one requires the least effort. Public should also understand that in construction engineer is your friend who reduces your cost where as all others adds to that.

Architecture requires a good right side of the brain where as Engineering requires left side. Good Architects thus are not good engineers and vice versa. If the country wants safer structures, let engineers do their duty and only engineers should supervise another engineer's works. Peer review/Inspectorate is a must. Nobody else understand these works. Thus all infra structure and building construction should be based on this.

Another issue is in the education system practised in India. One of my usual interview questions to M.Techs for jobs or internship is archimedes law and definition. I would have interviewed may be around 400 engineers. None of them ever gave me the answer correctly except one or two. It was invented by Archimedes in BC 250. Our students are yet to understand this and they do not apply to this to structures. Leave the students, some of the university professors who got Phd from IITs are yet to understand the same. Some of the top consultants have spent clients crores of rupees not understanding Archimedes. Problem lies with the teachers. Our education systems is depending on notes given by teachers. This is to be stopped. All exams should be open text book exams from high school itself to know if they have understood the real theory and applied it.

An application level teaching is highly essential as many of us do not know why we are learning many subjects. For example mathematics topics for engineers are not taught with application in mind. Maths being a big tool in analysing the situations, we lack in the use of it due to the same. Students should learn from the text books and not from the notes given by lecturers. Only then they will know the art of learning from information available in internet and other libraries. Sefians should come forward to support an entrance exam where screening is done by multiple choice and then those who qualifies, to open text book exam in the second part. Just by introducing a system like this, it will pass shock waves through levels of education even from primary schools.

A primary school student is given a set of equations to by heart and it reduces the teachers job of explaining it. The same student by hearts all the civil engineering equations rather than understanding or deriving it. The number of equations they do exceed thousands and they do not use or remember it at the time of application. Also none of my engineers ever told me how to do a foundation where footing and retaining wall comes together as what they know is only footing and retaining wall individually. When will we ever stop teaching civil engineering as different members alone like slab, beam, column, pile, footing, retaining wall or the theory behind all these members as a unified one?

A great deal of interaction is possible with the engineering subjects mentioned above for easy construction with the power of IT. As engineers offices do all the jobs in the same enviornment, speed and accuracy of the system will improve. Look at Uber taxi, they have reduced the cost of travelling to 50% or lesser with overall integration. In construction, you can save 100% cost in construction with the same. We are masters in waste creation not reduction. A quick example is, we do a villa in 2 years which is actually possible in 5 months by integrating services. Here we are loosing 20% interest cost alone in a Rs 5000 per sqft villa. If the cost of civil construction is Rs 1000 per sqft, we loose it in time alone. There are atleast another 15 parameters where we loose additionally.

Look at our engineers, they do not use programming to do their own software. Leave it, they do not even know the key board. Twenty five years ago I submitted an assignment typed in my engineering college for the first time in their history. Even though there was resistance from teachers I could force them to accept it. It improved my typing skills, and this could be why I am typing this today to express my views.

Research is what Country needs and it is not practised any where. If I am right only IIT Chennai has MS courses promoting research. Thanks to our PM I read about 10 such units will be set up else where in yeterday's news paper. There should be a grants and support from the Govt in research to reduce the cost of construction in India. Being the largest area of Govt spending, research can save a part of this amount. Many of the research we presently do is not of use to common practise, and before funding the impact needs to be valued.

Minister asked a question to IT sector what they should do to support IT in the year 2001 in a seminar at Kochi and the scientifc advisor to CM , Chandrababu Naidu, was the chair person, said the best thing you can do is to stay away from this. In my opinion Government and govt supported firms should stay away from the real construction as practiced in other countries. What Govt should do is to have Inspectorates all over the country as like electrical inspectorate to check the construction activity. Cream of our society either goes abroad or goes to Government and they do not work for India anymore. All PWD, CPWD, EIL systems to be revamped to only checking level as they are working at 20% their efficiency. Also Engineers connected in any way with Govt has to be seperated from decision making bodies as they were part of a system which worked with very low efficiency.

Regards,



Reji Zachariah B.Tech., M.B.A., ​​
M​.
S. IIT Chennai.
​

Structural Consultant




Mobile +919846026162
S&R Consultants, Structural & Geotechnical Consultants,
2nd floor, S&R Building, Soonoro church 1st cross rd,
Elamkulam, Kochi 20, Kerala, India.
Phone +914843241537 Fax +914842322532
coordinates : 9.965968,76.308463
E mail: r (srconsultants@eth.net (srconsultants@eth.net))ejizac2004@gmail.com (ejizac2004@gmail.com (ejizac2004@gmail.com))
www.sandrconsultants.com
www.aadspro.com


skype id: rejizac
google talk id: rejizac2004@gmail.com (rejizac2004@gmail.com) (rejizac2004@gmail.com (rejizac2004@gmail.com))

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Arun Nadig
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Joined: 04 Jan 2012
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:00 am    Post subject: [Quality of Services] of Structural Engineers and the conflicted Architect -Structural Engineer relationship Reply with quote

I think the suggestion from James Cohen is truly appreciable. Why don't we as a team arrange for press release and briefings to broadcast our vision and problems being faced by the structural design community.  
Regards
ARUN NADIG  
On Tue, 16 Feb 2016 9:03 amJames_Cohen <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:

Quote:
           Would it cost so much for the profession to broadcast their message to the general public?
James S. Cohen P.E.
Senior Vice President
Thornton Tomasetti

40 Wall Street
New York, NY 10005-1304
T +1.212.367.3000 F +1.212.497.2488
D +1.212.367.2988 M +1.917.733.0204
JCohen@ThorntonTomasetti.com (JCohen@ThorntonTomasetti.com) (JCohen@ThorntonTomasetti.com (JCohen@ThorntonTomasetti.com))
www.ThorntonTomasetti.com

From: rejizac [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)]
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 10:28 AM
To: econf@sefindia.org (econf@sefindia.org)
Subject: {E-CONF2016} Re: [Quality of Services] of Structural Engineers and the conflicted Architect -Structural Engineer relationship





Dear all,

It is sad to note that the quality of civil engineering practised in the country is reducing day by day in all areas of construction. We are ourselves to be blamed and we ourselves can make it right. After touching and integrating many of these aspects in my career, let me put down some points..

First of all, the seniors among us are to be blamed seriously for not considering anything to change the trend in the last 40 years. Before that engineers managed the construction fully. The next generation off loaded the responsibility of construction to many other hands like, Architects, Builders etc.

As we only are responsible for life, we need to take control. Now you would say there is no law in the land to put it that way. Actually we are law makers ourselves, as we control the construction through many instruction in the general notes we give along with the drawings. Now Sefi may introduce a common general notes or our constitution which is to be followed in all sites through these drawings. For example, Constitution/law do not give parking spaces for auto rikshas or taxi. They fix it themselves and no body is going to complain about that when there is strong common sense behind these. We should act in the same way. Let us make our own laws and implement it too. Nobody else is going to understand or support you.

Another important point is that you don't let others to do the work you are supposed to do. What they do is, they get the works done by different engineers and they just assemble it together with out knowing the subjects like in a post office. We design engineers, planning engineers, estimation engineers, quality control engineers, site engineers all work for them. He gets paid but you are not. Public never understands what the engineers do as they only see the other faces. You need to deal with public and get the works directly. You can do this much faster and efficiently. If at all client wants cosmetic or functionality you get an architect to work for you on that project. After practising most topics in civil engineering including structral design, detailing, software development, erp software, estimation, geotechnical, planning, construction management and architecture I think the last one requires the least effort. Public should also understand that in construction engineer is your friend who reduces your cost where as all others adds to that.

Architecture requires a good right side of the brain where as Engineering requires left side. Good Architects thus are not good engineers and vice versa. If the country wants safer structures, let engineers do their duty and only engineers should supervise another engineer's works. Peer review/Inspectorate is a must. Nobody else understand these works. Thus all infra structure and building construction should be based on this.

Another issue is in the education system practised in India. One of my usual interview questions to M.Techs for jobs or internship is archimedes law and definition. I would have interviewed may be around 400 engineers. None of them ever gave me the answer correctly except one or two. It was invented by Archimedes in BC 250. Our students are yet to understand this and they do not apply to this to structures. Leave the students, some of the university professors who got Phd from IITs are yet to understand the same. Some of the top consultants have spent clients crores of rupees not understanding Archimedes. Problem lies with the teachers. Our education systems is depending on notes given by teachers. This is to be stopped. All exams should be open text book exams from high school itself to know if they have understood the real theory and applied it.

An application level teaching is highly essential as many of us do not know why we are learning many subjects. For example mathematics topics for engineers are not taught with application in mind. Maths being a big tool in analysing the situations, we lack in the use of it due to the same. Students should learn from the text books and not from the notes given by lecturers. Only then they will know the art of learning from information available in internet and other libraries. Sefians should come forward to support an entrance exam where screening is done by multiple choice and then those who qualifies, to open text book exam in the second part. Just by introducing a system like this, it will pass shock waves through levels of education even from primary schools.

A primary school student is given a set of equations to by heart and it reduces the teachers job of explaining it. The same student by hearts all the civil engineering equations rather than understanding or deriving it. The number of equations they do exceed thousands and they do not use or remember it at the time of application. Also none of my engineers ever told me how to do a foundation where footing and retaining wall comes together as what they know is only footing and retaining wall individually. When will we ever stop teaching civil engineering as different members alone like slab, beam, column, pile, footing, retaining wall or the theory behind all these members as a unified one?

A great deal of interaction is possible with the engineering subjects mentioned above for easy construction with the power of IT. As engineers offices do all the jobs in the same enviornment, speed and accuracy of the system will improve. Look at Uber taxi, they have reduced the cost of travelling to 50% or lesser with overall integration. In construction, you can save 100% cost in construction with the same. We are masters in waste creation not reduction. A quick example is, we do a villa in 2 years which is actually possible in 5 months by integrating services. Here we are loosing 20% interest cost alone in a Rs 5000 per sqft villa. If the cost of civil construction is Rs 1000 per sqft, we loose it in time alone. There are atleast another 15 parameters where we loose additionally.

Look at our engineers, they do not use programming to do their own software. Leave it, they do not even know the key board. Twenty five years ago I submitted an assignment typed in my engineering college for the first time in their history. Even though there was resistance from teachers I could force them to accept it. It improved my typing skills, and this could be why I am typing this today to express my views.

Research is what Country needs and it is not practised any where. If I am right only IIT Chennai has MS courses promoting research. Thanks to our PM I read about 10 such units will be set up else where in yeterday's news paper. There should be a grants and support from the Govt in research to reduce the cost of construction in India. Being the largest area of Govt spending, research can save a part of this amount. Many of the research we presently do is not of use to common practise, and before funding the impact needs to be valued.

Minister asked a question to IT sector what they should do to support IT in the year 2001 in a seminar at Kochi and the scientifc advisor to CM , Chandrababu Naidu, was the chair person, said the best thing you can do is to stay away from this. In my opinion Government and govt supported firms should stay away from the real construction as practiced in other countries. What Govt should do is to have Inspectorates all over the country as like electrical inspectorate to check the construction activity. Cream of our society either goes abroad or goes to Government and they do not work for India anymore. All PWD, CPWD, EIL systems to be revamped to only checking level as they are working at 20% their efficiency. Also Engineers connected in any way with Govt has to be seperated from decision making bodies as they were part of a system which worked with very low efficiency.

Regards,





Reji Zachariah B.Tech., M.B.A., Ãâ‚â€Ãâ‚â€
MÃâ‚â€.
S. IIT Chennai.
Ãâ‚â€



Structural Consultant




Mobile +919846026162
S&R Consultants, Structural & Geotechnical Consultants,
2nd floor, S&R Building, Soonoro church 1st cross rd,
Elamkulam, Kochi 20, Kerala, India.
Phone +914843241537 Fax +914842322532
coordinates : 9.965968,76.308463


E mail: r (srconsultants@eth.net (srconsultants@eth.net) (srconsultants@eth.net (srconsultants@eth.net)))ejizac2004@gmail.com (ejizac2004@gmail.com) (ejizac2004@gmail.com (ejizac2004@gmail.com) (ejizac2004@gmail.com (ejizac2004@gmail.com)))


www.sandrconsultants.com
www.aadspro.com


skype id: rejizac


google talk id: rejizac2004@gmail.com (rejizac2004@gmail.com) (rejizac2004@gmail.com (rejizac2004@gmail.com)) (rejizac2004@gmail.com (rejizac2004@gmail.com) (rejizac2004@gmail.com (rejizac2004@gmail.com)))
     



     



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alpa_sheth
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:26 am    Post subject: [Quality of Services] of Structural Engineers and the conflicted Architect -Structural Engineer relationship Reply with quote

Hi All,

I understand the contempt we seem to have for the architecture profession but I think as engineers we need to have a more calibrated and nuanced understanding of how Architects are trained to think and behave. And what a world of difference there is in Architecture Education and Civil Engineering Education. I have been chairing the Academic Council of a premier Architecture College in Mumbai for over a ten years. And do they make you slog! We meet at least once each month and my colleagues come down from Delhi, Pune, Ahmedabad. Such are the resources that an architecture college is ready to spend on quality of education. We talk about vertical integration across the five years of architecture education which means at the beginning of an academic calendar year, faculty of a subject say structural engineering along with the Academic Council are required to sit together and discuss who is teaching how and what in which year, what are their teaching tools, site visits  They discuss and critique this threadbare. Then there is horizontal integration which is across all the subjects being taught in the first year (or 2nd year or 3rd year...) so that the three main streams - design, technology and humanities flow seamlessly into each other. There is faculty and course evaluation each semester. The amount of time and passion faculty expends in coordinating, discussing course content, course philosophy is to be seen to be believed. And this college is not unique. I have been to other premier architecture colleges and they are just as rigorous. One striking difference in architecture colleges apart from the above is that architecture programs have courses which are meant purely to teach students to think in abstract. And the studio courses are also designed to make them creative.  

A young woman engineer at my office lamented the difference in teaching methods in architecture and engineering colleges. She graduated giving just one presentation in the first year and one during her final year. She was never required to open her mouth otherwise. Most of her classmates entered engineering college without being able to string a sentence in English. So do some architecture students. The difference is that engineering students graduate with a degree without still being able to form an English sentence while the architecture student is subjected to all kinds of stress tests where she is made to explain and defend her work- in juries, presentations, vivas, projects and so on. As a result they come out extremely articulate and confident.
Time and again, the structural engineer is unable to convey what is important for the building stability, safety and serviceability and what constitutes good behavior. His solutions always seem boring, droll and uninteresting not because they are necessarily so but because he is a poor communicator. The architect switches off midway and dismisses the poor engineer with a “do as I say”. The engineer needs to learn a few important skills- sketching, model-making and language skills if he is to interact as an equal with the architect. He needs to be more involved in his project and think CREATIVELY. Not just that, we should remember to be like the Latin quote on the seal of the USA - E pluribus unum, loosely translated as "First Among Equals"  
I am extending the quote that NRK touched upon regarding Charles Correa's comment on Engineering education in his essay "IN SEARCH OF BRUNEL"
*****
Their (architects) appalling indifference to the engineering miracles that support them is merely a reflection of the seemingly myopic attitudes which engineers bring to their own workplace. How do we change this so that engineers once again learn to perceive their work more holistically?  
For architectural students, this pivotal learning experience usually occurs in the Design Studio. And though it is debatable whether such studios succeed in imparting any design skills, they do establish in the student’s mind a vivid understanding of architecture as a holistic process, where the part determines the whole - and vice versa. It is imperative that something analogous is created within the engineering curriculum, and that MIT, as the premier institute for its kind in the world today, shows the way.
A start can perhaps be made by examining different possibilities, viz:  
1. Introduce additional courses in Engineering History so that the student understands the challenges of the vocation he has chosen.
2. Offer more exposure to Art and Literature. But this, however brilliantly presented, will not necessarily provide students with the holistic overview they need to find within the parameters of their own work.
3. Try new kinds of inter-disciplinary experiments. We already have studios that mix architects, urban designers and planners why not include other departments, such as civil and environmental engineering as well? Perhaps through such conjunctions new synergies will be generated and architecture might repay a debt incurred a century ago.
**************
I have been a visiting faculty at an IIT and at a Mumbai Engg College and I can say in all honestly that the environment was not conducive to sustain the interest of a professional with competing priorities. And yet I give a significant amount of time each week to an architecture college. What does this say about our engineering education? Here is a fervent plea to change the status quo.  


Regards,
Alpa  




From: rejizac [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]  
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2016 10:28 AM
To: econf@sefindia.org
Subject: {E-CONF2016} Re: [Quality of Services] of Structural Engineers and the conflicted Architect -Structural Engineer relationship



Dear all,  

It is sad to note that the quality of civil engineering practised in the country is reducing day by day in all areas of construction. We are ourselves to be blamed and we ourselves can make it right. After touching and integrating many of these aspects in my career, let me put down some points..  

First of all, the seniors among us are to be blamed seriously for not considering anything to change the trend in the last 40 years. Before that engineers managed the construction fully. The next generation off loaded the responsibility of construction to many other hands like, Architects, Builders etc.  

As we only are responsible for life, we need to take control. Now you would say there is no law in the land to put it that way. Actually we are law makers ourselves, as we control the construction through many instruction in the general notes we give along with the drawings. Now Sefi may introduce a common general notes or our constitution which is to be followed in all sites through these drawings. For example, Constitution/law do not give parking spaces for auto rikshas or taxi. They fix it themselves and no body is going to complain about that when there is strong common sense behind these. We should act in the same way. Let us make our own laws and implement it too. Nobody else is going to understand or support you.  

Another important point is that you don't let others to do the work you are supposed to do. What they do is, they get the works done by different engineers and they just assemble it together with out knowing the subjects like in a post office. We design engineers, planning engineers, estimation engineers, quality control engineers, site engineers all work for them. He gets paid but you are not. Public never understands what the engineers do as they only see the other faces. You need to deal with public and get the works directly. You can do this much faster and efficiently. If at all client wants cosmetic or functionality you get an architect to work for you on that project. After practising most topics in civil engineering including structral design, detailing, software development, erp software, estimation, geotechnical, planning, construction management and architecture I think the last one requires the least effort. Public should also understand that in construction engineer is your friend who reduces your cost where as all others adds to that.  

Architecture requires a good right side of the brain where as Engineering requires left side. Good Architects thus are not good engineers and vice versa. If the country wants safer structures, let engineers do their duty and only engineers should supervise another engineer's works. Peer review/Inspectorate is a must. Nobody else understand these works. Thus all infra structure and building construction should be based on this.  

Another issue is in the education system practised in India. One of my usual interview questions to M.Techs for jobs or internship is archimedes law and definition. I would have interviewed may be around 400 engineers. None of them ever gave me the answer correctly except one or two. It was invented by Archimedes in BC 250. Our students are yet to understand this and they do not apply to this to structures. Leave the students, some of the university professors who got Phd from IITs are yet to understand the same. Some of the top consultants have spent clients crores of rupees not understanding Archimedes. Problem lies with the teachers. Our education systems is depending on notes given by teachers. This is to be stopped. All exams should be open text book exams from high school itself to know if they have understood the real theory and applied it.  

An application level teaching is highly essential as many of us do not know why we are learning many subjects. For example mathematics topics for engineers are not taught with application in mind. Maths being a big tool in analysing the situations, we lack in the use of it due to the same. Students should learn from the text books and not from the notes given by lecturers. Only then they will know the art of learning from information available in internet and other libraries. Sefians should come forward to support an entrance exam where screening is done by multiple choice and then those who qualifies, to open text book exam in the second part. Just by introducing a system like this, it will pass shock waves through levels of education even from primary schools.  

A primary school student is given a set of equations to by heart and it reduces the teachers job of explaining it. The same student by hearts all the civil engineering equations rather than understanding or deriving it. The number of equations they do exceed thousands and they do not use or remember it at the time of application. Also none of my engineers ever told me how to do a foundation where footing and retaining wall comes together as what they know is only footing and retaining wall individually. When will we ever stop teaching civil engineering as different members alone like slab, beam, column, pile, footing, retaining wall or the theory behind all these members as a unified one?  

A great deal of interaction is possible with the engineering subjects mentioned above for easy construction with the power of IT. As engineers offices do all the jobs in the same enviornment, speed and accuracy of the system will improve. Look at Uber taxi, they have reduced the cost of travelling to 50% or lesser with overall integration. In construction, you can save 100% cost in construction with the same. We are masters in waste creation not reduction. A quick example is, we do a villa in 2 years which is actually possible in 5 months by integrating services. Here we are loosing 20% interest cost alone in a Rs 5000 per sqft villa. If the cost of civil construction is Rs 1000 per sqft, we loose it in time alone. There are atleast another 15 parameters where we loose additionally.  

Look at our engineers, they do not use programming to do their own software. Leave it, they do not even know the key board. Twenty five years ago I submitted an assignment typed in my engineering college for the first time in their history. Even though there was resistance from teachers I could force them to accept it. It improved my typing skills, and this could be why I am typing this today to express my views.  

Research is what Country needs and it is not practised any where. If I am right only IIT Chennai has MS courses promoting research. Thanks to our PM I read about 10 such units will be set up else where in yeterday's news paper. There should be a grants and support from the Govt in research to reduce the cost of construction in India. Being the largest area of Govt spending, research can save a part of this amount. Many of the research we presently do is not of use to common practise, and before funding the impact needs to be valued.  

Minister asked a question to IT sector what they should do to support IT in the year 2001 in a seminar at Kochi and the scientifc advisor to CM , Chandrababu Naidu, was the chair person, said the best thing you can do is to stay away from this. In my opinion Government and govt supported firms should stay away from the real construction as practiced in other countries. What Govt should do is to have Inspectorates all over the country as like electrical inspectorate to check the construction activity. Cream of our society either goes abroad or goes to Government and they do not work for India anymore. All PWD, CPWD, EIL systems to be revamped to only checking level as they are working at 20% their efficiency. Also Engineers connected in any way with Govt has to be seperated from decision making bodies as they were part of a system which worked with very low efficiency.  

Regards,



Reji Zachariah B.Tech., M.B.A., Ãâ‚â€Ãâ‚â€
MÃâ‚â€.
S. IIT Chennai.
Ãâ‚â€

Structural Consultant




Mobile +919846026162
S&R Consultants, Structural & Geotechnical Consultants,
2nd floor, S&R Building, Soonoro church 1st cross rd,
Elamkulam, Kochi 20, Kerala, India.
Phone +914843241537 Fax +914842322532
coordinates : 9.965968,76.308463
E mail: r (srconsultants@eth.net (srconsultants@eth.net))ejizac2004@gmail.com (ejizac2004@gmail.com (ejizac2004@gmail.com))
www.sandrconsultants.com  
www.aadspro.com


skype id: rejizac
google talk id: rejizac2004@gmail.com (rejizac2004@gmail.com) (rejizac2004@gmail.com (rejizac2004@gmail.com))

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JVCSNL
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As explained by many participants, to bring the professional culture, we need to have professional education to built professional behavior.

Many of us directly compare other professions like Medicine, CA or architect, who are guided by their respective institute or councils.  We want similar status, but probably we don't want to get educated the way they are.  Just think of an architect student vis--vis a civil engineering student.  In my college days, I have seen architect students spending nights to create the design, which were suppose to be unique for every student.  conversely, the civil engineering student spend the nights only during exam days just to get passing marks.  

Similarly, imagine the life of a medical student or a student pursuing CA. They have put lot of hard work in their education and hence, they have acquired a status in society.  We demand such status automatically, without passing through painstaking education.

Most civil engineering students don't take part in experiments, don't prepare journals and experiment observation table themselves.  Even for the design classes, they copy from one design to other.  Is this the way they will acquire professional behavior and culture?

Since, these professional have learned the hard way to give justice to their profession during their education, they understand the importance and probably the attachment.  In opinion, we may be lacking such attachment to education and hence, we don't get organized in sharing the knowledge.  All these professionals conduct regular meetings, seminars and conferences for knowledge sharing and hence, they are able to create a professional culture to new generation.  Do we facilitate such conferences for knowledge sharing and experience sharing?  

To demand a proper compensation, we need to create that respect and deliver such services. Speaking from other corner and perceive conflict everywhere won't work anymore.  We need to learn (even if by hard way) to behave and work professionally.  The world must see this change and then only we may resolve lot of conflicts.  We will then get respect and reputation.

Regards,

Jignesh V Chokshi
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arunmenon
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:06 am    Post subject: On the need to address civil engineering and architecture education in India Reply with quote

Dear Alpa, Rupen and SEFIans,

I read with interest your inputs and thought-provoking statements on the status of civil engineering and architectural education. I am attaching here a short presentation that I was asked to make to a joint sitting of civil engineering and architecture faculty members at NIT Trichy (which in itself is a rarity), prior to an exercise of curriculum revision. My main thoughts are along the following lines:

(1) I strongly believe that respect for each other's profession, more so for two professions that are linked so inherently to the building process, comes from an understanding of what the other's profession entails. This environment of mutual respect can be fostered if there is a strong engagement of architecture students in civil engineering courses and vice versa, more importantly an intermingling of students and faculty members during courses, term projects, etc. If this sense of mutual respect is not inculcated in the academic circles, we have little hope of achieving this outside in the profession. This rarely happens, except for few electives one may have to take in the other department, which in my opinion is limited.

(2) Over the last 6 years that I have been at IIT Madras, I have come to realise that architecture students are more prepared in tackling open-ended problems than civil engineering students because of the way the architecture curriculum lays emphasis on design and approach to design. The engineering students are good at problem-solving, as long as a procedure or pattern can be identified in the problem, which is okay. But I guess, the way civil engineering education is configured today, it stifles the very root of innovation, which is free thinking, formulation of a problem, reasoning and justification of choices one wants to make. The design studio culture needs to be tapped in civil/structural engineering.

This discussion can go on and on...

It may be essential to mention that my first degree is in architecture, and thereafter I graduated with a PG degree in civil engineering and PhD research in earthquake engineering/structural engineering. I am currently a professor of structural engineering at IIT Madras.

Warm regards,
Arun



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mpradyumna
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:00 pm    Post subject: [Quality of Services] of Structural Engineers and the conflicted Architect -Structural Engineer relationship Reply with quote

I agree with Mr. Chokshi.
My observations below are for undergraduate colleges.

We have too many subjects per semester. Hence, most lab subjects are treated as necessary evils by both students and lecturers. It is very common to find lab records being copies from one year to the next. And survey camps are the most abused. Most lecturers do not have interest and students copy from an earlier work, routinely.

Who are the people who become lecturers. They are the ones who do not get jobs in the industry or are too lazy to apply. It is generally known that lecturers lead a fairly easy life. After a few years as a lecturer the experience is a repetition of the previous years. Hence, after about 5 years, a lecturer has nothing new to learn except seeing new faces every year.

With this scenario, no wonder that lecturers are paid low.

A few suggestions for changing this are:

1. Increase the pay scales for lecturers and make it mandatory for lecturers to have some experience in the industry, say 5 years, before becoming lecturers.
2. Professionals with more than 25 years of experience in the field should command special remuneration for opting to teach a few subjects for the undergraduate students.
3. Have professionals in the industry come in to do oral exams for important practicals and project works.

Thanks and regards,

M. Pradyumna
On 16-Feb-2016, at 2:21 PM, JVCSNL <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
As explained by many participants, to bring the professional culture, we need to have professional education to built professional behavior. Many of us directly compare other professions like Medicine, CA or architect, who are guided by their respective institute or councils. We want similar status, but probably we don't want to get educated the way they are. Just think of an architect student vis--vis a civil engineering student. In my college days, I have seen architect students spending nights to create the design, which were suppose to be unique for every student. conversely, the civil engineering student spend the nights only during exam days just to get passing marks.  Similarly, imagine the life of a medical student or a student pursuing CA. They have put lot of hard work in their education and hence, they have acquired a status in society. We demand such status automatically, without passing through painstaking education. Most civil engineering students don't take part in experiments, don't prepare journals and experiment observation table themselves. Even for the design classes, they copy from one design to other. Is this the way they will acquire professional behavior and culture?Since, these professional have learned the hard way to give justice to their profession during their education, they understand the importance and probably the attachment. In opinion, we may be lacking such attachment to education and hence, we don't get organized in sharing the knowledge. All these professionals conduct regular meetings, seminars and conferences for knowledge sharing and hence, they are able to create a professional culture to new generation. Do we facilitate such conferences for knowledge sharing and experience sharing?  To demand a proper compensation, we need to create that respect and deliver such services. Speaking from other corner and perceive conflict everywhere won't work anymore. We need to learn (even if by hard way) to behave and work professionally. The world must see this change and then only we may resolve lot of conflicts. We will then get respect and reputation. Regards,Jignesh V Chokshi
--

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thiyagarajan_shenbagaraja
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 1:00 pm    Post subject: [Quality of Services] of Structural Engineers and the conflicted Architect -Structural Engineer relationship Reply with quote

The issue is not only filtering the structural engineer's based on training or examination or membership.
We are talking about the fee what we are getting is not standardized.
Experience 5 years 10 years 15 years what difference it makes. The technology is vast now and one who had basic knowledge and let say 5 years experience is doing good engineering work.
As I expressed earlier our fee should be percentage basis.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 16, 2016, at 12:51 PM, JVCSNL <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:


Quote:
           As explained by many participants, to bring the professional culture, we need to have professional education to built professional behavior.

Many of us directly compare other professions like Medicine, CA or architect, who are guided by their respective institute or councils. We want similar status, but probably we don't want to get educated the way they are. Just think of an architect student vis-à-vis a civil engineering student. In my college days, I have seen architect students spending nights to create the design, which were suppose to be unique for every student. conversely, the civil engineering student spend the nights only during exam days just to get passing marks.

Similarly, imagine the life of a medical student or a student pursuing CA. They have put lot of hard work in their education and hence, they have acquired a status in society. We demand such status automatically, without passing through painstaking education.

Most civil engineering students don't take part in experiments, don't prepare journals and experiment observation table themselves. Even for the design classes, they copy from one design to other. Is this the way they will acquire professional behavior and culture?

Since, these professional have learned the hard way to give justice to their profession during their education, they understand the importance and probably the attachment. In opinion, we may be lacking such attachment to education and hence, we don't get organized in sharing the knowledge. All these professionals conduct regular meetings, seminars and conferences for knowledge sharing and hence, they are able to create a professional culture to new generation. Do we facilitate such conferences for knowledge sharing and experience sharing?

To demand a proper compensation, we need to create that respect and deliver such services. Speaking from other corner and perceive conflict everywhere won't work anymore. We need to learn (even if by hard way) to behave and work professionally. The world must see this change and then only we may resolve lot of conflicts. We will then get respect and reputation.

Regards,

Jignesh V Chokshi
     



     


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csazad
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Joined: 11 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 2:39 pm    Post subject: [Quality of Services] of Structural Engineers and the conflicted Architect -Structural Engineer relationship Reply with quote

Dear friends
I am very happy , to participate in this discussion and read such a good ideas and slight desperation in our profession. I want to advice all new engineers to work hard and try to attain all workshop. our civil engineering field is very very large. So we have to work part to whole.
Our association should prepare grass root practical approach for new comers workshop training programme with the help of govt & construction industries in all geo,highway ,steel structure , RCC structure,
tunnel design, building design, cad drawing, 3d Max, etc. to uplift our community.
I wish to share my experience. I walked 25yrs in field of Indian construction.  
Thanking you.
Er.Chandra Shekar Azad
Chartered Engineer(India)
On Feb 16, 2016 4:57 PM, "JVCSNL" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           As explained by many participants, to bring the professional culture, we need to have professional education to built professional behavior.

Many of us directly compare other professions like Medicine, CA or architect, who are guided by their respective institute or councils. We want similar status, but probably we don't want to get educated the way they are. Just think of an architect student vis-à-vis a civil engineering student. In my college days, I have seen architect students spending nights to create the design, which were suppose to be unique for every student. conversely, the civil engineering student spend the nights only during exam days just to get passing marks.

Similarly, imagine the life of a medical student or a student pursuing CA. They have put lot of hard work in their education and hence, they have acquired a status in society. We demand such status automatically, without passing through painstaking education.

Most civil engineering students don't take part in experiments, don't prepare journals and experiment observation table themselves. Even for the design classes, they copy from one design to other. Is this the way they will acquire professional behavior and culture?

Since, these professional have learned the hard way to give justice to their profession during their education, they understand the importance and probably the attachment. In opinion, we may be lacking such attachment to education and hence, we don't get organized in sharing the knowledge. All these professionals conduct regular meetings, seminars and conferences for knowledge sharing and hence, they are able to create a professional culture to new generation. Do we facilitate such conferences for knowledge sharing and experience sharing?

To demand a proper compensation, we need to create that respect and deliver such services. Speaking from other corner and perceive conflict everywhere won't work anymore. We need to learn (even if by hard way) to behave and work professionally. The world must see this change and then only we may resolve lot of conflicts. We will then get respect and reputation.

Regards,

Jignesh V Chokshi
     



     


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JVCSNL
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Thiyagarajan indicated that the fees for structural engineering services is "not standardized".  

I am curious to know, can professional services have a standard fee structure?  As mentioned in other topics on this conference, the fees will be based on the quality and quantum of services provided. It shall have no relation to % of cost.  I know that some of the services are based on % of total cost, for example, a simple furniture making services.  The carpenter asked for 35 to 45% of material cost.  I told him, I may buy SS316 material or SS304 material for fixtures and his effort to fix them do not change.  

In engineering of plant structures, we don't charge them based on % of plant cost.  Our services are based on the expertise and our efforts consumed and we charge based on the same.  

I guess, neither doctors or charted accountants charge uniform fee structure.  I have a strong opinion, the experience by number of experience is unjustified for demanding higher fees.  It is possible that an engineer with relatively lesser experience can provide much better services than an engineer having double the experience.  

I think, we need to come out of this seniority mentality and start working professionally.  A professional can charge more for better services as demanded by client.  

I think, we need to understand the client mentality also.  They will be ready to pay only if they see some quality of services and that too not at a hyper cost.  It is your presentation to client that will make him give you job even at a higher price.  This happens in all professions and we are no different.  

The professional fee is a function of services demanded by client and nothing else.  A value engineering proposition if provided to client will help you demand more money provided you add value.  The value is Function / Cost to reach the function.  Client look for more functions at a standard cost or expected function at recued cost.  Are we ready for this?

Regards,

Jignesh V Chokshi
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