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[Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks
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Ankur Shah
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear all,
             The core reason which i feel for this state of structural fees is
"Lack of Government body for Structural validation" & "Compromised Engineers".
In hundreds of buildings which i visited on site before starting my own consultancy i found most of building are designed for combination of DL& LL only. some say it practicality others call it experience. . (or may be they take slab as shell instead of membrane).. (e.g. most 9 story buildings are done using M20 grade with 13-15' ft column spacings & <1.5% steel)

"The point being building does not fail (Since earthquake is not common & also due to FOS in our codes) and there is no check done by government body on whether building design is as per code or not"...

"U can get Structural engineer License @2000rs per plan..."

Due to this those who are working professionally face scenario where he/she has to compromise "Accuracy to speed" & "Exact to approximation".

Any contractor or site engineer can call himself a structural engineer with number of yrs working in field. (Experience matters but fundamentals also are important).

Probable Solution

1. To have a competent body for validating/rejecting Structural Design in government & checking steel & concrete quality on site also.
2. Structural engineering license to be issued after passing proper exams.
(To become CA is very tough than engineering).


Regards,
Ankur Shah
Structural Engineer & Assistant professor...
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ajay2612
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:00 am    Post subject: [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks Reply with quote

openion is well come/ ajay On Wed, 10 Feb 2016 07:45:44 +0530 "Ankur Shah"  wrote >                   Dear all, >            The core reason which i feel for this state of structural fees is  > "Lack of Government body for Structural validation" & "Compromised Engineers".  > In hundreds of buildings which i visited on site before starting my own consultancy i  found most of building are designed for combination of DL& LL only. some say it  practicality others call it experience. . (or may be they take slab as shell instead of  membrane).. (e.g. most 9 story buildings are done using M20 grade with 13-15' ft column  spacings &   > "The point being building does not fail (Since earthquake is not common & also due to FOS  in our codes) and there is no check done by government body on whether building design is  as per code or not"... >  > "U can get Structural engineer License @2000rs per plan..." >  > Due to this those who are working professionally face scenario where he/she has to  compromise "Accuracy to speed" & "Exact to approximation".  >  > Any contractor or site engineer can call himself a structural engineer with number of yrs  working in field. (Experience matters but fundamentals also are important).  >  > Probable Solution >  > 1. To have a competent body for validating/rejecting Structural Design in government &  checking steel & concrete quality on site also. > 2. Structural engineering license to be issued after passing proper exams.  > (To become CA is very tough than engineering). >  >  > Regards, > Ankur Shah > Structural Engineer & Assistant professor...       > >  >  > --

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ajay chaudhari
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 2:00 pm    Post subject: [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks Reply with quote

Dear all,
I think the situation may be caused due to following some reasons
1)the negligence from all sect. of construction, 2)Our lacking in explaining our value and importace of decision,
3)expection of owner to make very economical structure at the cost of safety requirement., 4) Our decisions always called when the structure fails, but not before.5) Accepting the current system of practice, without collective efforts in its improvement have given rise to such situations.
Regards
A.G.Chaudhari On Feb 10, 2016 7:45 AM, "Ankur Shah" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear all,
           The core reason which i feel for this state of structural fees is
"Lack of Government body for Structural validation" & "Compromised Engineers".
In hundreds of buildings which i visited on site before starting my own consultancy i found most of building are designed for combination of DL& LL only. some say it practicality others call it experience. . (or may be they take slab as shell instead of membrane).. (e.g. most 9 story buildings are done using M20 grade with 13-15' ft column spacings & <1.5% steel)

"The point being building does not fail (Since earthquake is not common & also due to FOS in our codes) and there is no check done by government body on whether building design is as per code or not"...

"U can get Structural engineer License @2000rs per plan..."

Due to this those who are working professionally face scenario where he/she has to compromise "Accuracy to speed" & "Exact to approximation".

Any contractor or site engineer can call himself a structural engineer with number of yrs working in field. (Experience matters but fundamentals also are important).

Probable Solution

1. To have a competent body for validating/rejecting Structural Design in government & checking steel & concrete quality on site also.
2. Structural engineering license to be issued after passing proper exams.
(To become CA is very tough than engineering).


Regards,
Ankur Shah
Structural Engineer & Assistant professor...
     



     


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dipak_bhattacharya
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 6:00 pm    Post subject: [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks Reply with quote

A very important area none of you is discussing about:

Government clients(organisations) have to work in a different wavelength altogether.

They cannot afford to have any room for discretions and subjectivity in their official activity.

They prepare tender documents and once those are approved by their Competent Authorities, they have to follow everything as per the guidelines. Monetary matters are fixed by Price Bids.They are very careful of their own infrastructural agencies like ,Parliament questions,CBI, Vigilance, Internal audits, Test Audits, Enforcement Directorate and so on so forth.Of course, the Tender Documentations on many occasions, are debatable and not foolproof at all. A source of all juggleries.

As majority of clients are in Government Sectors(Central and State), it is my request that Committee Members of IAStructE, should make separate documentations/Guidelines keeping Government Clients in mind.

For ProofChecking, either they prescribe IITs, NITs or Government Engineering Colleges to keep themselves safe( Even if they have their own qualified Engineers).As those Premier Institutions are also virtually Autonomous Government Institutions,they keep themselves also safe by beautifully writing a clause, “ Even if ,the designs and drawings will be checked by Proof Consultants, responsibility of all design performances/correctness/ Structural Safety etc. lies with the Principal Design Consultants”.Result?The professors of those Institutions are earning hefty fees but wonderfully,-- with no responsibility. This kind of money earning can happen only in our country.Only Authority and no Responsibility!!

Thanks,

Dipak Bhattacharya / Delhi.
--




[quote]On 09-Feb-2016, at 5:56 pm, bsec <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Dear All,The Indian Association of Structural Engineers (IAStructE) came out in the year 2014 with two guidelines, for proof checking of buildings and bridges respectively. These guidelines are very informative and framed with the aim of providing owners / clients and contractors with a set of procedures for the selection of proof consultants / technical review consultant, depending upon the level and category of services expected from them.These guidelines were distributed to many by IAStructE and through this forum, I am also attaching these guidelines for reference and for use of all Sefians.Best WishesAlok BhowmickOn Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 12:18 PM, N. Prabhakar forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:--auto removed--

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sunil sodhai
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Joined: 30 Oct 2011
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:00 am    Post subject: [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks Reply with quote

IN OUR CITY ONE OF CIVIL ENGINEER EARTHQUAKE AND STRUCTURAL DESIGN
CERTIFICATE FOR JUST 200/- RUPEES WHAT THE OTHER EVEN THOUGH HE DOES
NOT DESIGN AND DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT RCC DESIGN WHAT THIS KIND OF
PRACTICES YOU CALL WHAT GOVT SHOULD DO.IN MY VIEW SUBMISSION OF
STRUCTURAL DRAWING SHOULD BE NECESSARY FOR BUILDING APPROVAL JUST
CERTIFICATE INIS NOT ENOUGH.THERE SHOULD STRUCTURAL ENGINEER OF
MUNCIPAL CORPORATION TO CHECK RCC DRAWING.

On 2/11/16, dipak_bhattacharya <forum@sefindia.org> wrote:
[quote]A very important area none of you is discussing about:

Government clients(organisations) have to work in a different wavelength
altogether.

They cannot afford to have any room for discretions and subjectivity in
their official activity.

They prepare tender documents and once those are approved by their Competent
Authorities, they have to follow everything as per the guidelines. Monetary
matters are fixed by Price Bids.They are very careful of their own
infrastructural agencies like ,Parliament questions,CBI, Vigilance, Internal
audits, Test Audits, Enforcement Directorate and so on so forth.Of course,
the Tender Documentations on many occasions, are debatable and not foolproof
at all. A source of all juggleries.

As majority of clients are in Government Sectors(Central and State), it is
my request that Committee Members of IAStructE, should make separate
documentations/Guidelines keeping Government Clients in mind.

For ProofChecking, either they prescribe IITs, NITs or Government
Engineering Colleges to keep themselves safe( Even if they have their own
qualified Engineers).As those Premier Institutions are also virtually
Autonomous Government Institutions,they keep themselves also safe by
beautifully writing a clause, “ Even if ,the designs and drawings will be
checked by Proof Consultants, responsibility of all design
performances/correctness/ Structural Safety etc. lies with the Principal
Design Consultants”.Result?The professors of those Institutions are earning
hefty fees but wonderfully,-- with no responsibility. This kind of money
earning can happen only in our country.Only Authority and no
Responsibility!!

Thanks,

Dipak Bhattacharya / Delhi.

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bijoyav
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:00 am    Post subject: [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees]Introductory Remarks Reply with quote

"Even if ,the designs and drawings will be checked by Proof Consultants, responsibility of all design performances/correctness/ Structural Safety etc. lies with the Principal Design Consultants"......

By this, the rationale of having checks will be lost.

From: dipak_bhattacharya (forum@sefindia.org)
Sent: ‎11-‎02-‎2016 08:09
To: econf@sefindia.org (econf@sefindia.org)
Subject: {E-CONF2016} Re: [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees]Introductory Remarks


     A very important area none of you is discussing about:

Government clients(organisations) have to work in a different wavelength altogether.

They cannot afford to have any room for discretions and subjectivity in their official activity.

They prepare tender documents and once those are approved by their Competent Authorities, they have to follow everything as per the guidelines. Monetary matters are fixed by Price Bids.They are very careful of their own infrastructural agencies like ,Parliament questions,CBI, Vigilance, Internal audits, Test Audits, Enforcement Directorate and so on so forth.Of course, the Tender Documentations on many occasions, are debatable and not foolproof at all. A source of all juggleries.

As majority of clients are in Government Sectors(Central and State), it is my request that Committee Members of IAStructE, should make separate documentations/Guidelines keeping Government Clients in mind.

For ProofChecking, either they prescribe IITs, NITs or Government Engineering Colleges to keep themselves safe( Even if they have their own qualified Engineers).As those Premier Institutions are also virtually Autonomous Government Institutions,they keep themselves also safe by beautifully writing a clause, “ Even if ,the designs and drawings will be checked by Proof Consultants, responsibility of all design performances/correctness/ Structural Safety etc. lies with the Principal Design Consultants”.Result?The professors of those Institutions are earning hefty fees but wonderfully,-- with no responsibility. This kind of money earning can happen only in our country.Only Authority and no Responsibility!!

Thanks,

Dipak Bhattacharya / Delhi.

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V. S. Kelkar
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Joined: 07 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:00 am    Post subject: [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks Reply with quote

FEES OF STRUCTURAL CONSULTANTS -

In earlier times the Structural Consultants used to be paid fess as a percentage of structural cost and Architects on a percentage of the total cost of the building.  But in the past 2 or 3 decades major construction in a city like Mumbai is done by the builders/developers. They think that why pay more to an architect on  the cost of, say,  Italian marble since his work is not much more than that if tiles were used.  Although the same argument is not true in case of structural consultants still  the Developers started paying fees on  sq. ft of area of construction instead of a percentage of cost of construction to structural consultants also. They even pay lesser rate for the basements and lower parking and podium floors(apparently because they are not their Sale floors which generate income for them)although work of structural design of such floors can be as time consuming as tower floors or even more. But all this was accepted by the structural consultants who had no other choice because they do not have a strong organization/lobby like Chartered Accountants. 

Every year staff salaries, prices and maintenance costs of software, computers go up by leaps and bounds. But the developer clients still talk of the same rate per sq. ft. for fees as was few years ago.  As a result consultants suffer. They are unable to pay decent salaries to their staff compared to those in other fields like banking, management etc.

Actually, rate per sq ft of fees should go up every year as per rising expenses. It could be linked to the Cost of Living index.  But many consultants go on accepting fees at low  rates thereby bringing down the overall fee structure.

As is it the developers are trying to put more and more burden and responsibility  on the structural consultants like asking for full time supervision at site(for which they reimburse only the salary of the engineer posted at site + a little more),  asking detailed bar bending schedules (for nominal additional fees). It is possible that in future they may say why do they have to pay engineer fees on area of all typical floors of a tall building and negotiate for a fee based on a reduced area consisting of only non typical floor areas.  Structural consultants will be like the advocates standing outside courts in Mumbai looking for prospective clients to do any petty work in court.


Vasant Kelkar



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From: bsec [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2016 1:57 PM
To: econf@sefindia.org
Subject: {E-CONF2016} Re: [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks



Dear Mr J D Buch,

The reason for low fee structure in India in my view is 'less' due to unwillingness of the Clients to pay more, but 'more' because of our (i,e structural engineers) own creation. My views in this regard are the following:

a) We structural engineers are not organised enough to set for ourselves, a minimum standards of performance and minimum fee structure.

b) We have learnt to accept jobs at very low fee due to cut-throat competition and also because we know that we can get away performing poorly in the job …by hook or by crook.

c) Due to absence of any licensing regime in the country, there is no accountability for structural engineers and therefore there is no fear for non-performance. We have allowed ourselves to lower our standards and compromised.

d) Whenever Clients (under pressure from politicians and bureaucrats) have asked us to give some unrealistic schedules for design submissions, we have always taken a very short sighted approach and yielded to these demands and compromised on the quality of delivery output, because we know that Client cannot immediately make out these poor quality works, which will come to surface later.

e) There is no fear of doing poor quality work. Past records shows that whenever there is a structural failure, instead of finding the real cause of failure and fixing accountability directly, all people involved in the profession unitedly work towards closing the files somehow and bury the issue till public memory fades. There has been several major failures in India in the past. Have you heard of any clear verdict in any of these cases, where responsibility has been fixed? We do not learn positive things from structural failures.

f) I think, if we want our fee to be reasonable, we have to work towards this goal ourselves unitedly. No one else will help us if we do not help ourselves. Way forward is as follows :

· All structural Engineering must be a member of any consulting engineers / structural engineering associations (e,g. IastructE, CEAI ...etc.)

· All such associations / institutions must improve their performance and should be much more active and aggressive in disseminating knowledge, in imparting special training to engineers for continuous professional development and in orienting young engineers in the right direction. Knowing fully well the level of education that the young engineers are getting from the universities now a days, responsibility of these associations are much much more now than ever before. All big sized consultants must put their heads together to improve performance of these associations.

· I think the Governing Council of all these associations must do brain storming in these lines. They should induct bright and young structural engineers in the decision making team so that these YE become a part of the think tank from early age.

· All big sized consultancy organisation MUST aim to set a standard of performance in addition to setting a standard of fee. Both are equally important. Very frankly I find that root cause of problems are caused by many of these big sized Consultants, who have brought the quality of our performance to a very low level.
Let us start making changes ourselves rather than blaming others for our plight.
Best Wishes

Alok Bhowmick

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 8:57 AM, jdbuch forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear all,
This is in continuation to my earlier mail. I've mentioned about importance of designing buildings in accordance with NBC.
There is a very big market beyond residential buildings constructed by builders. Some architects, contractors, may be small in number are working in conformity with NBC. It is my experience that such associations lead one satisfaction of the work. Such good architects take pain in educating their clients, explain about National Building Code, importance of designing buildings in accordance with it viz, in having all functional requirement, lighting, ventilation, orientation as well as structural design. etc...  I hope, such group of architects to emerge, and such an emergence will lead to increased demand for engineers who design buildings in accordance with Section 6 (i.e., structural engineers)

I feel, this is more important than forming an association or attaining legal status. Off course, I am not against having this. I am writing this to have increased demand.

If people start demanding more on quality design, quality construction, everything will be fine.

Bijoy AV
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:20 pm    Post subject: STRUCTURAL CONSULTANCY FEE Reply with quote

Dear Sefiens


This is regard to structural fee, Atpresent , in future structural engineers life will be miserable, ifwe cannot take some steps about standardization the fee format. Thestructural engineers  are main role for the building like skeletonof the body, contractor is substantial the body with concrete,Architect and interiors are dressing the body with imagination fordecent appearance, but nobody knows that good viewing comes due towell-proportioned Skelton and nerve root, so structural engineer ismain role model for the building to stand to any shape, we spendinglot of time in analysis, concept, detailing, but they are less paid


Even i agree , structural engineers,contractors, and architects are equally responsible for a buildingto come good shape, then fee of the total cost should be shared byequally all , since all are important but this is not happening butcontractors and architects making pretty good profit compared tostructural engineers


We have to blameour structural engineers some time, whatever it is happened so far ,structural engineers is main role for building stability but projectco-coordinators are more valuable and paid more than structuralengineers , and himself pedals the structural engineers, in myview, project coordinator should be structural engineers, he shouldinvolve in the concept, tendering ,project coordinator, analysis,design, detailing part and site issues ( GIVE RESPECT FOR EDUCTION)
Few large structural engineers quotethe less structural fee and execute the work and they made decentprofit turnover based on large scalability concept, with less fee (3RS) for huge built up-areas but in other way, medium sized firm mark less profit , since they are paid less fee for small built up-areas,ultimately two firms mark profit and other firms mark less profitas a consequently structural engineer’s paid less
In my view the building with built uparea more than 1 lakh, the fee should be based on 10 % of total RCCcost of the building, same as contractor, in this way we can save structural engineers


Thanks and Regards
RAVI PRASANNAKUMAR
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:40 pm    Post subject: [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks Reply with quote

Consultancy Development Center , functioning under Council of Scientific and Industrial Research had published " Manual for Guidelines of Consulting Engineers" in 1993 in association with Association of Consulting Civil Engineers and Association of Consulting Engineers [ Now after merging with NACE CEAI, Consulting Engineers association of India. Kindly refer this document, you will notice that the scope of services , fees etc has been described very well and fee structure also has been identified.
May be most of us are not aware.
Copy of the same may be available with CEAI's office as well as ACCE(I)'s office and centers. 
Regards
Umesh Rao   


On 12 February 2016 at 23:38, V. S. Kelkar <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           FEES OF STRUCTURAL CONSULTANTS -

In earlier times the Structural Consultants used to be paid fess as a percentage of structural cost and Architects on a percentage of the total cost of the building.  But in the past 2 or 3 decades major construction in a city like Mumbai is done by the builders/developers. They think that why pay more to an architect on  the cost of, say,  Italian marble since his work is not much more than that if tiles were used.  Although the same argument is not true in case of structural consultants still  the Developers started paying fees on  sq. ft of area of construction instead of a percentage of cost of construction to structural consultants also. They even pay lesser rate for the basements and lower parking and podium floors(apparently because they are not their Sale floors which generate income for them)although work of structural design of such floors can be as time consuming as tower floors or even more. But all this was accepted by the structural consultants who had no other choice because they do not have a strong organization/lobby like Chartered Accountants. 

Every year staff salaries, prices and maintenance costs of software, computers go up by leaps and bounds. But the developer clients still talk of the same rate per sq. ft. for fees as was few years ago.  As a result consultants suffer. They are unable to pay decent salaries to their staff compared to those in other fields like banking, management etc.

Actually, rate per sq ft of fees should go up every year as per rising expenses. It could be linked to the Cost of Living index.  But many consultants go on accepting fees at low  rates thereby bringing down the overall fee structure.

As is it the developers are trying to put more and more burden and responsibility  on the structural consultants like asking for full time supervision at site(for which they reimburse only the salary of the engineer posted at site + a little more),  asking detailed bar bending schedules (for nominal additional fees). It is possible that in future they may say why do they have to pay engineer fees on area of all typical floors of a tall building and negotiate for a fee based on a reduced area consisting of only non typical floor areas.  Structural consultants will be like the advocates standing outside courts in Mumbai looking for prospective clients to do any petty work in court.


Vasant Kelkar



This e-mail is confidential and is for the use of intended recipient(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, Please delete it and notify us immediately. Please do not copy, use or distribute this e-mail. While we have taken precautions against the risk of transmitting computer viruses, we cannot accept responsibility  for any loss or damage caused by your accessing this e-mail.


From: bsec [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)]
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2016 1:57 PM
To: econf@sefindia.org (econf@sefindia.org)
Subject: {E-CONF2016} Re: [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks



Dear Mr J D Buch,

The reason for low fee structure in India in my view is 'less' due to unwillingness of the Clients to pay more, but 'more' because of our (i,e structural engineers) own creation. My views in this regard are the following:

a) We structural engineers are not organised enough to set for ourselves, a minimum standards of performance and minimum fee structure.

b) We have learnt to accept jobs at very low fee due to cut-throat competition and also because we know that we can get away performing poorly in the job …by hook or by crook.

c) Due to absence of any licensing regime in the country, there is no accountability for structural engineers and therefore there is no fear for non-performance. We have allowed ourselves to lower our standards and compromised.

d) Whenever Clients (under pressure from politicians and bureaucrats) have asked us to give some unrealistic schedules for design submissions, we have always taken a very short sighted approach and yielded to these demands and compromised on the quality of delivery output, because we know that Client cannot immediately make out these poor quality works, which will come to surface later.

e) There is no fear of doing poor quality work. Past records shows that whenever there is a structural failure, instead of finding the real cause of failure and fixing accountability directly, all people involved in the profession unitedly work towards closing the files somehow and bury the issue till public memory fades. There has been several major failures in India in the past. Have you heard of any clear verdict in any of these cases, where responsibility has been fixed? We do not learn positive things from structural failures.

f) I think, if we want our fee to be reasonable, we have to work towards this goal ourselves unitedly. No one else will help us if we do not help ourselves. Way forward is as follows :

· All structural Engineering must be a member of any consulting engineers / structural engineering associations (e,g. IastructE, CEAI ...etc.)

· All such associations / institutions must improve their performance and should be much more active and aggressive in disseminating knowledge, in imparting special training to engineers for continuous professional development and in orienting young engineers in the right direction. Knowing fully well the level of education that the young engineers are getting from the universities now a days, responsibility of these associations are much much more now than ever before. All big sized consultants must put their heads together to improve performance of these associations.

· I think the Governing Council of all these associations must do brain storming in these lines. They should induct bright and young structural engineers in the decision making team so that these YE become a part of the think tank from early age.

· All big sized consultancy organisation MUST aim to set a standard of performance in addition to setting a standard of fee. Both are equally important. Very frankly I find that root cause of problems are caused by many of these big sized Consultants, who have brought the quality of our performance to a very low level.
Let us start making changes ourselves rather than blaming others for our plight.
Best Wishes

Alok Bhowmick

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 8:57 AM, jdbuch forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))> wrote:
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