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[Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks
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Dr. N. Subramanian
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:06 pm    Post subject: [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks Reply with quote

Dear All,

Welcome to this session of e-conference! My opening remarks are enclosed.

Since this is the topic that affects all, I am sure many will discuss!  

Warm regards,
Subramanian

Attached Documents to be downloaded:


Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees.docx



Fees for Structural Consultants-CE & CR-Oct 2002.pdf



Dr. Yacub Mohan George-Proposed-KMBR_Structural__Fee.pdf



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jdbuch
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 3:27 am    Post subject: [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks Reply with quote

Dear NS,

1 have seen that the topic of need of standard fees is discussed in various forums by the Institute of Architects since late fifties and later by Structural Engineers. The reason the clients do not pay such fees is cut-throat competition, particularly in India, in the Architectura/Engineering profession.

Architects/Engineers who speak so forcefully in various forums on the need of having standard fees, themselves compete among themselves and are prepared to work at the lowest unworkable fee; generally the balance is made up from gratification from elsewhere. Let us accept this fact also and find a solution (I do not think that there is any) in discussion.

Regards

J.D.Buch




From: "Dr. N. Subramanian" <forum@sefindia.org>
Sent: Tue, 09 Feb 2016 00:13:54
To: econf@sefindia.org
Subject: {E-CONF2016} [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks
           Dear All,

Welcome to this session of e-conference! My opening remarks are enclosed.

Since this is the topic that affects all, I am sure many will discuss!

Warm regards,
Subramanian
     



     
Download Attachments:
Fees for Structural Consultants-CE & CR-Oct 2002.pdf
Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees.docx


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bsec
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:00 am    Post subject: [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks Reply with quote

Dear Mr J D Buch,

The reason for low fee structure in India in my view is 'less' due to unwillingness of the Clients to pay more, but 'more' because of our (i,e structural engineers) own creation. My views in this regard are the following:

a)††††††† We structural engineers are not organised enough to set for ourselves, a minimum standards of performance and minimum fee structure.  

b)††††††† We have learnt to accept jobs at very low fee due to cut-throat competition and also because we know that we can get away performing poorly in the job ‚Ķby hook or by crook.

c)††††††† Due to absence of any licensing regime in the country, there is no accountability for structural engineers and therefore there is no fear for non-performance. We have allowed ourselves to lower our standards and compromised.

d)††††††† Whenever Clients (under pressure from politicians and bureaucrats) have asked us to give some unrealistic schedules for design submissions, we have always taken a very short sighted approach and yielded to these demands and compromised on the quality of delivery output, because we know that Client cannot immediately make out these poor quality works, which will come to surface later. †††

e)††††††† There is no fear of doing poor quality work. Past records shows that whenever there is a structural failure, instead of finding the real cause of failure and fixing accountability directly, all people involved in the profession unitedly work towards closing the files somehow and bury the issue till public memory fades.† There has been several major failures in India in the past. Have you heard of any clear verdict in any of these cases, where responsibility has been fixed? We do not learn positive things from structural failures.

f)†††††††† I think, if we want our fee to be reasonable, we have to work towards this goal ourselves unitedly. No one else will help us if we do not help ourselves. Way forward is as follows :

∑††††† All structural Engineering must be a member of any consulting engineers / structural engineering associations (e,g. IastructE, CEAI ...etc.) †

∑††††† All such associations / institutions must improve their performance and should be much more active and aggressive in disseminating knowledge, in imparting special training to engineers for continuous professional development and in orienting young engineers in the right direction. Knowing fully well the level of education that the young engineers are getting from the universities now a days, responsibility of these associations are much much more now than ever before. All big sized consultants must put their heads together to improve performance of these associations.

∑††††† I think the Governing Council of all these associations must do brain storming in these lines. They should induct bright and young structural engineers in the decision making team so that these YE become a part of the think tank from early age.†

∑††††† All big sized consultancy organisation MUST aim to set a standard of performance in addition to setting a standard of fee. Both are equally important. Very frankly I find that root cause of problems are caused by many of these big sized Consultants, who have brought the quality of our performance to a very low level.
†Let us start making changes ourselves rather than blaming others for our plight.
Best Wishes

Alok Bhowmick

On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 8:57 AM, jdbuch <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear NS,

1 have seen that the topic of need of standard fees is discussed in various forums by the Institute of Architects since late fifties and later by Structural Engineers. The reason the clients do not pay such fees is cut-throat competition, particularly in India, in the Architectura/Engineering profession.

Architects/Engineers who speak so forcefully in various forums on the need of having standard fees, themselves compete among themselves and are prepared to work at the lowest unworkable fee; generally the balance is made up from gratification from elsewhere. Let us accept this fact also and find a solution (I do not think that there is any) in discussion.

Regards

J.D.Buch




From: "Dr. N. Subramanian"
Sent: Tue, 09 Feb 2016 00:13:54
To: econf@sefindia.org (econf@sefindia.org)
Subject: {E-CONF2016} [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks
           Dear All,

Welcome to this session of e-conference! My opening remarks are enclosed.

Since this is the topic that affects all, I am sure many will discuss!

Warm regards,
Subramanian
     



     
Download Attachments:
Fees for Structural Consultants-CE & CR-Oct 2002.pdf
Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees.docx


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N. Prabhakar
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Dr. NS,

Generally speaking, I don't think that there can be a standard fees charged by Structural Consultants, as it all depends on the quantum and quality of service that is provided, besides the reputation of the Consultant.  Even, among other professionals like doctors, lawyers and chartered accountant, there is no such standard fees for the same reason.  

For the consultancy I have done for industrial structures, I have quoted and got paid for what I think is right and reasonable.  I really do not know how much others quote for the same consultancy work, and there is no way of finding it also.  In fact, I do not wish to know it also as I may feel miserable if other consultants are paid much more.  If I don't quote more like others, it is my mistake, and I should be content with job satisfaction only.

The big problem lies with many small consultancy offices with a staff of say about 30 people, doing mainly building type structures, as the consultancy fee paid by the property developers/builders is very less. These people think that with the use of computers, designs and drawings can be prepared easily by the press of a button, hence need not be paid much.   Besides, the salaries of structural engineers and other technical staff have gone up so high due to inflation, MNC's participation and high salaries paid in IT industry, it is a question of survival for these small offices.  A united action is needed by all the consultants by way of charging minimum fees, without any under-cutting, for building type structures.

With best wishes,

N. Prabhakar
Chartered Structural Engineer
Vasai (E), Pin 401 208
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DEEPAK BANSAL
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:43 am    Post subject: Structural Engineering in India Reply with quote

Dear Forum
This is very important and relevant discussion, as there must be clear and unambitious definition of roles and responsibilities of each professional in every project. Since there is no act of parliament, which governs Engineers , other professionals are taking advantages of Engineers including Structural Engineers. Commercial angles are also important, but these are to be decided by individual professionals in this competitive world.
But, besides this, there should also be liability provisions on structural engineers for their acts, as we are also responsible for  life and materials in built environment.
RegardsDeepak Bansal
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 9:00 am    Post subject: [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks Reply with quote

Dear All,

The Indian Association of Structural Engineers (IAStructE) came out in the year 2014 with two guidelines, for proof checking of buildings and bridges respectively. These guidelines are very informative and framed with the aim of providing owners / clients and contractors with a set of procedures for the selection of proof consultants / technical review consultant, depending upon the level and category of services expected from them.



These guidelines were distributed to many by IAStructE and through this forum, I am also attaching these guidelines for reference and for use of all Sefians.


Best Wishes


Alok Bhowmick






On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 12:18 PM, N. Prabhakar <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear Dr. NS,

Generally speaking, I don't think that there can be a standard fees charged by Structural Consultants, as it all depends on the quantum and quality of service that is provided, besides the reputation of the Consultant. Even, among other professionals like doctors, lawyers and chartered accountant, there is no such standard fees for the same reason.

For the consultancy I have done for industrial structures, I have quoted and got paid for what I think is right and reasonable. I really do not know how much others quote for the same consultancy work, and there is no way of finding it also. In fact, I do not wish to know it also as I may feel miserable if other consultants are paid much more. If I don't quote more like others, it is my mistake, and I should be content with job satisfaction only.

The big problem lies with many small consultancy offices with a staff of say about 30 people, doing mainly building type structures, as the consultancy fee paid by the property developers/builders is very less. These people think that with the use of computers, designs and drawings can be prepared easily by the press of a button, hence need not be paid much. Besides, the salaries of structural engineers and other technical staff have gone up so high due to inflation, MNC's participation and high salaries paid in IT industry, it is a question of survival for these small offices. A united action is needed by all the consultants by way of charging minimum fees, without any under-cutting, for building type structures.

With best wishes,

N. Prabhakar
Chartered Structural Engineer
Vasai (E), Pin 401 208
     



     


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Balakumar
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 11:00 am    Post subject: e-conference Reply with quote

Dear Sir,
Very interesting e-conference.I had been practicing for nearly 24 years and gave up only for one reason.The reason is that the fee was never paid at the right time and on many occasions the efficiency of the designer was measure by the quantum of steel he provides per sq.ft.I stopped my practice in the year 2008 and till then I could not get more than RE2/SQ.FT.All of a sudden the salary level of draughtsman went up from 7000 to 15000 or mor because of larger organisations and invasion of some firms from places like SINGAPORE.but people were willing to pay them a better remuneration.Presently the shortage of good person for draughting continues aggravated by the present market situation.Hope the conditions will improve as the professional practice is far more interesting than anything else.
Sd..................
Dr.V.Balakumar,
Ph.D ; C.Engg ; MIE ; FIGS.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:00 pm    Post subject: [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks Reply with quote

All discussions endup in blogs and mail..
this thing is not only issue of charge..its more serious public safety....take that point have a safe shelter for us indians... On 9 Feb 2016 23:14, "Anees Kizhisseri" <anees2k2007@gmail.com (anees2k2007@gmail.com)> wrote:[quote]
its a good move, hope for a fine days tomorrow... On 9 Feb 2016 18:00, "bsec" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:[quote]            Dear All,

The Indian Association of Structural Engineers (IAStructE) came out in the year 2014 with two guidelines, for proof checking of buildings and bridges respectively. These guidelines are very informative and framed with the aim of providing owners / clients and contractors with a set of procedures for the selection of proof consultants / technical review consultant, depending upon the level and category of services expected from them.



These guidelines were distributed to many by IAStructE and through this forum, I am also attaching these guidelines for reference and for use of all Sefians.


Best Wishes


Alok Bhowmick






On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 12:18 PM, N. Prabhakar forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
      --auto removed--

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anees2k2007
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:00 pm    Post subject: [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks Reply with quote

its a good move, hope for a fine days tomorrow... On 9 Feb 2016 18:00, "bsec" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:[quote]            Dear All,

The Indian Association of Structural Engineers (IAStructE) came out in the year 2014 with two guidelines, for proof checking of buildings and bridges respectively. These guidelines are very informative and framed with the aim of providing owners / clients and contractors with a set of procedures for the selection of proof consultants / technical review consultant, depending upon the level and category of services expected from them.



These guidelines were distributed to many by IAStructE and through this forum, I am also attaching these guidelines for reference and for use of all Sefians.


Best Wishes


Alok Bhowmick






On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 12:18 PM, N. Prabhakar forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
      --auto removed--

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 6:00 pm    Post subject: [Structural Engineering Consultancy Fees] Introductory Remarks Reply with quote

If we can have public awareness programs- then media comes were media comes - there politicians then regulations will come... On 9 Feb 2016 23:19, "Anees Kizhisseri" <anees2k2007@gmail.com (anees2k2007@gmail.com)> wrote:[quote]
All discussions endup in blogs and mail..
this thing is not only issue of charge..its more serious public safety....take that point have a safe shelter for us indians... On 9 Feb 2016 23:14, "Anees Kizhisseri" <anees2k2007@gmail.com (anees2k2007@gmail.com)> wrote:[quote]
its a good move, hope for a fine days tomorrow... On 9 Feb 2016 18:00, "bsec" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:[quote]            Dear All,

The Indian Association of Structural Engineers (IAStructE) came out in the year 2014 with two guidelines, for proof checking of buildings and bridges respectively. These guidelines are very informative and framed with the aim of providing owners / clients and contractors with a set of procedures for the selection of proof consultants / technical review consultant, depending upon the level and category of services expected from them.



These guidelines were distributed to many by IAStructE and through this forum, I am also attaching these guidelines for reference and for use of all Sefians.


Best Wishes


Alok Bhowmick






On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 12:18 PM, N. Prabhakar forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
      --auto removed--

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