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Econference on The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Act, 2016 (RERA) and its impact on Structural Engineers
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pradeep joshiaaa
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 6:00 pm    Post subject: Econference on The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Act, 2016 (RERA) and its impact on Structural Engineers Reply with quote

Dear Alpha,

In nut shell What RERA has done to Real Estate sector is that all non serious players are out of the Business now. Structural Engineers should also do such out of box idea. There should be a Pen Down Strike of Structural Consultants till the ENGINEERS BILL is passed and Structural Engineering is  recognized as a profession , Designing done by  Professional Certified Structural Engineers only. The issue of Fees , corruption & other issues that are hurting the profession will be resolved. Structural Engineers are not Business person or politician , we can get our voice heard only when we STOP working. Govt will come done on Knee and then will listen the grievances of the structural profession. Engineers Bill is the only Solution. RERA cannot save the honor or will bring honor to Structural Guys. Initiative should be taken by the Seniors.


Regards


Pradeep Joshi


On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 2:01 PM, alpa_sheth <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
[quote]            Dear Sangeeta,


I understand your exasperation. A lot of your concerns could be addressed if we had  competency based registration of structural engineers. RERA will not address any of the issues you raise. RERA has very little about  safety issues (other than financial protection to buyer)  embedded in it. 


While it is off-topic, I will address your comment re. revised IS 1893 doing away with 2.5 times design lateral force option for open ground storey structures since I was part of the 3 member drafting group of this code. This clause was eliminated as we  felt that a stiffness deficiency cannot be made good by providing over-strength. We need to address a stiffness deficiency with compensatory additional stiffness. 


Regarding your other point, the reason we do not see too many three and four storey structures fail in moderate earthquakes despite having no seismic resistant features is that even though they may be designed as gravity RC frame structures with  infill masonry panels, if constructed well,   they seem to have innate ability to perform similar to confined masonry structures - but only to a point.  They will show their deficiencies beyond  threshold earthquake shaking.  Thus  many thousands of three and four storey buildings in Ahmedabad survived  the Bhuj 2001 earthquake even though they were not designed for earthquakes but the same type of buildings did not survive in Bhachau and Bhuj where shaking intensity was many times more than in Ahmedabad. 


best regards,
Alpa 
 









On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 1:32 PM, sangeeta_wij forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
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bijoyav
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: Econference on The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Act, 2016 (RERA) and its impact on Structural Engineers Reply with quote

Let me add my experience too. What I observed during construction of structure, whose design has been done in a proper way, is that, the concrete is not properly manufactures, reinforcement is not placed properly, aggregates are of proper sizes, flaky & elongated, shuttering is not made in line or level, plumb of column is not proper, absence of ductile reinforcement even though it is detailed well...

Can I go personally & check all there? The contractors, architects or builder do not give adequate importance to these aspect. Now a days, the workers are also careless in these aspects. When I started my career, the head of the worker often look into these thinks.

Bijoy AV

sangeeta_wij wrote:
My dear SEFI friends
Rural or urban, our people are just not aware that structural safety needs to be built into their houses/industries by hiring directly, a competent structural design engineer. I offered to peer review the structural analysis,design and drawings to my next door neighbours, building a G+4 house costing about 3 Cr, and also a family friend.To my surprise, I found lot of hidden beams and when I asked for the Model to check deflections etc, the Architect sent me a 3D Model (perspective) and said that their structural associate has never let him down in last 45 years,and he wouldn’t like to embarrass him at this stage. I then modelled the structure in ETABS and clearly told my friend that it was not designed as an earthquake resistant structure and could only carry gravity loads.
However, the Client in this case decided to go with the Architect’s choice, as he had had a long association with him and could not embarrass him.
We can forget his case, as he is non technical and doesnot understand the implications of a poor design; but look at the one sided directive issued in Delhi Building Bye Laws, right under the nose of CPWD, to make stilts mandatory in all new structures, knowing fully well that none of the engineers/architects got it designed for 2.5 times the earthquake loads. And in new 1893-part-I, this option has also been dropped and open storeys are now recommended to have RC walls or bracings(or dampers?) installed as per clause 7.10.Who the hell is going to bell the cat now?
There are a lot of builders/developers who have coerced the Architects and structural engineers to go in for Flat Slabs, and Floating Columns and extreme soft storeys(remember gateway type buildings in NCR, where two high rise towers are joined and 5-6 floors added above, covering the entire area??) These are glaring examples of even expert structural engineers giving in to pressure from Mighty Clients.

I am really not sure structural safety is in demand , so who wants a structural engineer??




Best Regards
Sangeeta Wij
Managing Partner
SD Engineering Consultants LLP
Vice President(North),Indian Association of Structural Engineers,
Fellow and Chartered Engineer, Institution of Engineers
H333 New Rajinder Nagar(Lower Ground Floor),
New Delhi-110060
Ph:9811776210;01145128530


From: Avinash_singh [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: 17 May 2017 23:10
To: econf@sefindia.org
Subject: [E-CONF] Econference on The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Act, 2016 (RERA) and its impact on Structural Engineers



Dear members,

We should work towards awareness of people towards structural engineering,what is the role of structural engineer and how he can help you to acheive economy as well as strength in your structures specially in rural and semi urban areas where people don't understand what structural engineering is all about.In these area people heavily rely on labours and one thing I observed that they are happy in 3D modelling instead of structural design & stability.They just go for the construction of small to big residential and commercial structures after getting 3D model and without consulting structural engineer's and also the local authority allowing them to do so.

Avinash singh
M.tech (structure)
Sent from my iPhone 7=

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muralimithun
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 3:50 pm    Post subject: Econference on The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Act, 2016 (RERA) and its impact on Structural Engineers Reply with quote

Dear Avinash,
How do you know people getting 3d models without consulting structural engineer.  
On 18 May 2017 10:10 a.m., "Avinash_singh" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear members,

We should work towards awareness of people towards structural engineering,what is the role of structural engineer and how he can help you to acheive economy as well as strength in your structures specially in rural and semi urban areas where people don't understand what structural engineering is all about.In these area people heavily rely on labours and one thing I observed that they are happy in 3D modelling instead of structural design & stability.They just go for the construction of small to big residential and commercial structures after getting 3D model and without consulting structural engineer's and also the local authority allowing them to do so.

Avinash singh
M.tech (structure)
Sent from my iPhone 7=
     



     



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namdev_warade
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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 6:00 am    Post subject: Econference on The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Act, 2016 (RERA) and its impact on Structural Engineers Reply with quote

Dear Members,As an engineer, I expect and all our member should insist that a list of fees rates should be decided. RERA impose responsibilities on us but in market there is no standard fees as to what rate we should be charging the services.In fact, in a project everybody earns more than engineer and fairly enough all other service provider's fees are almost set and recognized by the people. 
An engineer is multi-tasker. He can provide services right from beginning i.e. planning engineer-structural engineer-supervisor- to occupancy. Unfortunately; engineers recognition is far less. Engineering community should rightly fight all these issue.
Otherwise less pay;high responsibility burden would only weaken engineering foundation. An engineer individually should also fight for self-respect and self recognition. thank you
Warade Namdev
MEcivil-structures
(works as planning engineer, structural engineer etc.)
  


On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 1:10 PM, bijoyav <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Let me add my experience too. What I observed during construction of structure, whose design has been done in a proper way, is that, the concrete is not properly manufactures, reinforcement is not placed properly, aggregates are of proper sizes, flaky & elongated, shuttering is not made in line or level, plumb of column is not proper, absence of ductile reinforcement even though it is detailed well...

Can I go personally & check all there? The contractors, architects or builder do not give adequate importance to these aspect. Now a days, the workers are also careless in these aspects. When I started my career, the head of the worker often look into these thinks.

Bijoy AV

      sangeeta_wij wrote:                My dear SEFI friends
Rural or urban, our people are just not aware that structural safety needs to be built into their houses/industries by hiring directly, a competent structural design engineer. I offered to peer review the structural analysis,design and drawings to my next door neighbours, building a G+4 house costing about 3 Cr, and also a family friend.To my surprise, I found lot of hidden beams and when I asked for the Model to check deflections etc, the Architect sent me a 3D Model (perspective) and said that their structural associate has never let him down in last 45 years,and he wouldn’t like to embarrass him at this stage. I then modelled the structure in ETABS and clearly told my friend that it was not designed as an earthquake resistant structure and could only carry gravity loads.
However, the Client in this case decided to go with the Architect’s choice, as he had had a long association with him and could not embarrass him.
We can forget his case, as he is non technical and doesnot understand the implications of a poor design; but look at the one sided directive issued in Delhi Building Bye Laws, right under the nose of CPWD, to make stilts mandatory in all new structures, knowing fully well that none of the engineers/architects got it designed for 2.5 times the earthquake loads. And in new 1893-part-I, this option has also been dropped and open storeys are now recommended to have RC walls or bracings(or dampers?) installed as per clause 7.10.Who the hell is going to bell the cat now?
There are a lot of builders/developers who have coerced the Architects and structural engineers to go in for Flat Slabs, and Floating Columns and extreme soft storeys(remember gateway type buildings in NCR, where two high rise towers are joined and 5-6 floors added above, covering the entire area??) These are glaring examples of even expert structural engineers giving in to pressure from Mighty Clients.

I am really not sure structural safety is in demand , so who wants a structural engineer??




Best Regards
Sangeeta Wij
Managing Partner
SD Engineering Consultants LLP
Vice President(North),Indian Association of Structural Engineers,
Fellow and Chartered Engineer, Institution of Engineers
H333 New Rajinder Nagar(Lower Ground Floor),
New Delhi-110060
Ph:9811776210;01145128530


From: Avinash_singh [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)]
Sent: 17 May 2017 23:10
To: econf@sefindia.org (econf@sefindia.org)
Subject: [E-CONF] Econference on The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Act, 2016 (RERA) and its impact on Structural Engineers



Dear members,

We should work towards awareness of people towards structural engineering,what is the role of structural engineer and how he can help you to acheive economy as well as strength in your structures specially in rural and semi urban areas where people don't understand what structural engineering is all about.In these area people heavily rely on labours and one thing I observed that they are happy in 3D modelling instead of structural design & stability.They just go for the construction of small to big residential and commercial structures after getting 3D model and without consulting structural engineer's and also the local authority allowing them to do so.

Avinash singh
M.tech (structure)
Sent from my iPhone 7=
     
     



     


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imteyaz_ahmad
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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Econference on The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Act, 2016 (RERA) and its impact on Structural Engineers Reply with quote

Dear Members, 
What I have noticed that we all are divided and there is no unity among practicing structural engineers in India. It's true that everybody should earn his bread, but there should be a sense of professionalism and fraternity. I am sorry to say but consultants here in India try to snatch work from others by charging lesser and lesser amount per square feet from client and willing to do anything the architect wants them to, not even thinking once about structural safety and serviceability. 
In such a condition how can we think that on technical persons will ever respect our work? Or understand the importance of structural engineers when we ourselves are deteriorating our value.


The other thing is that seniors and pioneers in this industry are really not concerned about bringing any positive change or to get it recognized by masses. There is no mentorship or guidance to new comers. Even the technical lectures are organized on weekdays, which makes it impossible for any structural engineer working in a company to attend.


I have worked in India, Dubai and Finland, and the major difference I found is that in those geographies they mentor, teach and pass on their knowledge. Apart from Structural engineering they also guide engineers for contracts, negotiations, FIDIC books etc. Here most HOD's or Owners will fear that they might have to face another competitor.


It is the need of hour that seniors/mentors try to convince government bodies to introduce a License to practice engineering, make it compulsory for all developers/clients to submit a design approved from licensed engineer, authority should demand approved drawings from contractors.



Regards,
Imteyaz
CEng - IStructE






On Sunday, 21 May 2017, namdev_warade <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
[quote]            Dear Members,As an engineer, I expect and all our member should insist that a list of fees rates should be decided. RERA impose responsibilities on us but in market there is no standard fees as to what rate we should be charging the services.In fact, in a project everybody earns more than engineer and fairly enough all other service provider's fees are almost set and recognized by the people. 
An engineer is multi-tasker. He can provide services right from beginning i.e. planning engineer-structural engineer-supervisor- to occupancy. Unfortunately; engineers recognition is far less. Engineering community should rightly fight all these issue.
Otherwise less pay;high responsibility burden would only weaken engineering foundation. An engineer individually should also fight for self-respect and self recognition. thank you
Warade Namdev
MEcivil-structures
(works as planning engineer, structural engineer etc.)
  


On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 1:10 PM, bijoyav forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
      --auto removed--

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tanpreet
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Econference on The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Act, 2016 (RERA) and its impact on Structural Engineers Reply with quote

Dear Avinash Singh,

I have a very TOUCHY point of view... please bear with me...
i really appreciate that you are going to participate in helping real estate development in civil point of view..


But my point is that your enthusiastic approach would not help fresher engineers who are looking for job, as you know the scope of civil engineers now a days are going down, as i have a strong feeling that we should appoint numerous well qualified smart civil engineers so that they can earn and serve for the nation without affecting your approach (real estate Development) .. 


The same thing "GURBANI" tell us DASWAND System, we must contribute 1/10 income for poor (freshers or struggling) people so that they can give blessings.. 


Please look into this matter and reply me with your valuable words.. 

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject: Econference on The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Act, 2016 (RERA) and its impact on Structural Engineers Reply with quote

Dear Imteyaz,

I do not know what your Indian experience is. After working for 10 years in Private Ltd Cos' environments after my retirement, I noticed that owners recruit the cheapest Engineering personnels and keep them under an experienced engineer and make the later's life miserable.After getting a job the young hands always remain in the lookout of a better salaried jobs; as soon as they are really deliverable, they leave immediately!
What is your experience and knowledge on this aspect in other countries?


On 23 May 2017 at 09:57, tanpreet <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear Avinash Singh,

I have a very TOUCHY point of view... please bear with me...
i really appreciate that you are going to participate in helping real estate development in civil point of view..


But my point is that your enthusiastic approach would not help fresher engineers who are looking for job, as you know the scope of civil engineers now a days are going down, as i have a strong feeling that we should appoint numerous well qualified smart civil engineers so that they can earn and serve for the nation without affecting your approach (real estate Development) .. 


The same thing "GURBANI" tell us DASWAND System, we must contribute 1/10 income for poor (freshers or struggling) people so that they can give blessings.. 


Please look into this matter and reply me with your valuable words.. 
     



     



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sudarshanmalchapure049@gm
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:00 pm    Post subject: Econference on The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Act, 2016 (RERA) and its impact on Structural Engineers Reply with quote

Dear SirIt is actually a great thought towards the awareness, safety and economical construction which each and every Structural Design Engineer should be part off.


Sudarshan
M.tech (CSE)


On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 12:39 PM, Avinash_singh <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear members,

We should work towards awareness of people towards structural engineering,what is the role of structural engineer and how he can help you to acheive economy as well as strength in your structures specially in rural and semi urban areas where people don't understand what structural engineering is all about.In these area people heavily rely on labours and one thing I observed that they are happy in 3D modelling instead of structural design & stability.They just go for the construction of small to big residential and commercial structures after getting 3D model and without consulting structural engineer's and also the local authority allowing them to do so.

Avinash singh
M.tech (structure)
Sent from my iPhone 7=
     



     



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suraj
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Econference on The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Act, 2016 (RERA) and its impact on Structural Engineers Reply with quote

Agree with you
Our engineers do not like to know about contracts, relevant laws, FIDIC, NEC etc.
They only know FEM & stresses
They can not be convinced at all
They cannot support themselves to fight & establish professional practice
They do not respect their professional registrations
They are ready to submit to illegal registrations arbitrary done by Local bodies

[quote="imteyaz_ahmad"]Dear Members,
What I have noticed that we all are divided and there is no unity among practicing structural engineers in India. It's true that everybody should earn his bread, but there should be a sense of professionalism and fraternity. I am sorry to say but consultants here in India try to snatch work from others by charging lesser and lesser amount per square feet from client and willing to do anything the architect wants them to, not even thinking once about structural safety and serviceability.
In such a condition how can we think that on technical persons will ever respect our work? Or understand the importance of structural engineers when we ourselves are deteriorating our value.


The other thing is that seniors and pioneers in this industry are really not concerned about bringing any positive change or to get it recognized by masses. There is no mentorship or guidance to new comers. Even the technical lectures are organized on weekdays, which makes it impossible for any structural engineer working in a company to attend.


I have worked in India, Dubai and Finland, and the major difference I found is that in those geographies they mentor, teach and pass on their knowledge. Apart from Structural engineering they also guide engineers for contracts, negotiations, FIDIC books etc. Here most HOD's or Owners will fear that they might have to face another competitor.


It is the need of hour that seniors/mentors try to convince government bodies to introduce a License to practice engineering, make it compulsory for all developers/clients to submit a design approved from licensed engineer, authority should demand approved drawings from contractors.



Regards,
Imteyaz
CEng - IStructE






On Sunday, 21 May 2017, namdev_warade <forum> wrote:
Quote:
            Dear Members,As an engineer, I expect and all our member should insist that a list of fees rates should be decided. RERA impose responsibilities on us but in market there is no standard fees as to what rate we should be charging the services.In fact, in a project everybody earns more than engineer and fairly enough all other service provider's fees are almost set and recognized by the people.
An engineer is multi-tasker. He can provide services right from beginning i.e. planning engineer-structural engineer-supervisor- to occupancy. Unfortunately; engineers recognition is far less. Engineering community should rightly fight all these issue.
Otherwise less pay;high responsibility burden would only weaken engineering foundation. An engineer individually should also fight for self-respect and self recognition. thank you
Warade Namdev
MEcivil-structures
(works as planning engineer, structural engineer etc.)
  


On Fri, May 19, 2017 at 1:10 PM, bijoyav forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Econference on The Real Estate (Regulation and Development) Act, 2016 (RERA) and its impact on Structural Engineers Reply with quote

Dear Dipak Bhattacharya Sir,

Certainly you have much more experience in engineering and management. I agree with your words that company in order to make more profit hire cheap engineering professionals (Certainly not from reputed institutes) and these engineers have little knowledge of structural physics, they are always relying on softwares for analysis and design. 
I have seen engineers removing columns to make span twice and increasing reinforcement to twice of the previous value, or just providing a number of floating columns without even thinking about stability of building just to make architect happy.
Ofcourse Salary is important factor for motivation for work, and this is true for any part of world, another important factor is Work and environmental factors. So as long as they have a belief that they are being recognized, awarded, mentored (technical and managerial both) they are not going to leave, or if they will come back to you. 


My suggestion was to encourage Structural Engineers to have a fair understanding of contracts, negotiations and FIDIC (Red Book, Risk allocations etc.) and not just to make them a calculator. There is a mass of engineers who have not even heard of FIDIC books.


I do not know much about clauses and terms of contracts that Structural Consultancies in India use. As per my understanding of RERA, they are promoting to have a PMC, either in-house or Consultant for every said project. 
Structural Engineers/Consultancies can add a clause for Construction Administration/Supervision( if it is not there yet and ofcourse make it chargeable), unless the part/area/floor in construction is checked and approved by engineers, do not certify further withdrawal of money from your end, which is required by RERA. You might face some heat, but will earn respect and recognition in long term.


Since a certain amount of project will be always there in a bank account, and it will be used for that only project, so engineers do not have to worry about their fee, engineers can always hold drawing/design documents in case of non-payment.


The Act also speaks of Structural Defect and defect on workmanship, this clause should be used by consultancies to bind developer in a contract to have a Engineering Supervisor at the site as a full time employee till the structural work is finished. This man should have sufficient experience and should be given an authority over Site personnels. Also PMC should be advised to have a peer review of projects.


Organizations like IEI, IAStructE can join hands with NGO's EWB or some government body to educate people about safety of structures, such as a public awareness camp on engineers day, or twice a year. 
Also under leadership of IAStructE and IEI, we should discuss why Structural Engineering is not a recognized profession, its not only about buildings, there are lot more of structures which effects day to day life of people. We have seen a bridge failure in Goa last week. 
If COA can get there profession recognized, i am sure Structural Engineers can too, if they will to and unite.


Lastly i would like to say that if we do not respect our profession, then nobody will respect us.











On 23 May 2017 at 17:09, dipak_bhattacharya <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
[quote]            Dear Imteyaz,

I do not know what your Indian experience is. After working for 10 years in Private Ltd Cos' environments after my retirement, I noticed that owners recruit the cheapest Engineering personnels and keep them under an experienced engineer and make the later's life miserable.After getting a job the young hands always remain in the lookout of a better salaried jobs; as soon as they are really deliverable, they leave immediately!
What is your experience and knowledge on this aspect in other countries?


On 23 May 2017 at 09:57, tanpreet forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
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