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Latent Defect Notification of sanctioned modification by Govt. of Maharashtra, Maharashtra Regional & Town Planning
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ashishphadke
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:54 am    Post subject: Latent Defect Notification of sanctioned modification by Govt. of Maharashtra, Maharashtra Regional & Town Planning Reply with quote

Hello All Engineers,

Please read the attached 'latent defect.pdf', this notification is dated 07/03/2018.

I say, these kind of responsibility 'DUTIES' &  are approved very promptly
& what about the 'RIGHTS', our right to get apt fees.
Please see attached, 'feedraft_115.pdf'.

Is this fee draft approved by any government???

In our constitution, I am entitled to both, 'RIGHTS' & 'DUTIES'.

Where are we leading ourselves?

Thanks

Ashish Phadke



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gattanianil
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:12 am    Post subject: Latent Defect Notification of sanctioned modification by Govt. of Maharashtra, Maharashtra Regional & Town Planning Reply with quote

Dear Sefians


It is nice to see that Govt. is coming with certain parameters regarding structural fraternity.
I feel we should convey our vision :
  1. Architect should not be responsible for the structural defect.
  2. Liability of 10 years should start from the time possession is given to first person and not OC. As many do not take OC and also OC takes much time and possession is given before.
  3. We should modify structural stability certificate. It should mention that any structural changes done after possession cancels our responsibility.
  4. Nowadays proof checking is done. Hence design is rarely with defects. Builder and Contractor should be responsible for the defects as te workmanship is responsible. We should not be held responsible for material defects , concrete defects. In this way Builders and Contractors will be more responsible towards the work.


I hope some more points can be added. I feel you cannot be responsible for defect in steel. Steel manufacture should be responsible. How can you be responsible for RMC concrete. Let every person make themselves responsible then only we will be able to acheive balance in our industry.


Thanks & Regards


anil gattani


From: ashishphadke <forum@sefindia.org>
Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 6:54 AM
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Latent Defect Notification of sanctioned modification by Govt. of Maharashtra, Maharashtra Regional & Town Planning Act.  

Hello All Engineers,

Please read the attached 'latent defect.pdf', this notification is dated 07/03/2018.

I say, these kind of responsibility 'DUTIES' & are approved very promptly
& what about the 'RIGHTS', our right to get apt fees.
Please see attached, 'feedraft_115.pdf'.

Is this fee draft approved by any government???

In our constitution, I am entitled to both, 'RIGHTS' & 'DUTIES'.

Where are we leading ourselves?

Thanks

Ashish Phadke





Download Attachments:
My right?
My duty & responsibility!

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SATYAPAUL
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:03 am    Post subject: Latent Defect Notification of sanctioned modification by Govt. of Maharashtra, Maharashtra Regional &amp; Town Plann Reply with quote

completion certificate shall be the responsibility of the builder duly signed by the  Architect,STRUCTURAL ENGINEER,ELECTRICAL ENGINEER AND BY FIRE SAFETY DEPARTMENT.builder must issue a  certificate regarding use of material and its quality. regards satya pal  On Mon, 12 Mar 2018 11:04:39 +0530 "gattanianil"  wrote >                   Dear Sefians  >  >  > It is nice to see that Govt. is coming with certain parameters regarding structural fraternity.  > I feel we should convey our vision : Architect should not be responsible for the structural  defect.Liability of 10 years should start from the time possession is given to first person and not OC.  As many do not take OC and also OC takes much time and possession is given before.We should modify  structural stability certificate. It should mention that any structural changes done after possession  cancels our responsibility.Nowadays proof checking is done. Hence design is rarely with defects.  Builder and Contractor should be responsible for the defects as te workmanship is responsible. We  should not be held responsible for material defects , concrete defects. In this way Builders and  Contractors will be more responsible towards the work.  >  > I hope some more points can be added. I feel you cannot be responsible for defect in steel. Steel  manufacture should be responsible. How can you be responsible for RMC concrete. Let every person make  themselves responsible then only we will be able to acheive balance in our industry.  >  >  > Thanks & Regards  >  >  > anil gattani >  >  > From: ashishphadke  > Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 6:54 AM > To: general@sefindia.org > Subject: [SEFI] Latent Defect Notification of sanctioned modification by Govt. of Maharashtra,  Maharashtra Regional & Town Planning Act.  >  > Hello All Engineers, >  > Please read the attached 'latent defect.pdf', this notification is dated 07/03/2018.  >  > I say, these kind of responsibility 'DUTIES' & are approved very promptly > & what about the 'RIGHTS', our right to get apt fees.  > Please see attached, 'feedraft_115.pdf'. >  > Is this fee draft approved by any government??? >  > In our constitution, I am entitled to both, 'RIGHTS' & 'DUTIES'. >  > Where are we leading ourselves? >  > Thanks >  > Ashish Phadke >  >  >  >  >  > Download Attachments: > My right? > My duty & responsibility! >       > >  >  > --

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mpradyumna
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Joined: 31 Dec 2014
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:02 pm    Post subject: Latent Defect Notification of sanctioned modification by Govt. of Maharashtra, Maharashtra Regional & Town Planning Reply with quote

Dear All,
I was part of a company where we designed and built some specialised steel structures. It was difficult to convince Professors to proof check some of our design due to paucity of time and the complex nature of the structures. Hence, we came up with the concept of “philosophical check”. The professor whom we approached would check our work in a sitting of maybe 2 to 3 hours, where we would present our design and he would ask us questions and voice his apprehensions. After we satisfy him completely he would provide a certificate for the same. We would be completely responsible for the actual load application, analysis, shop drawings etc. The Professor would not be liable for any errors as he is only doing a philosophical check.

This worked out quite economical for everyone and satisfied the client also that our work has been checked by an eminent professor.

We should include this type of checking into our scheme of things. In any case a very senior Professor or Engg personality would not actually pore over all the calculations, and his insights would be more valuable than his time checking all the calculations. He would delegate the actual checking to one or more of his trusted deputies, who could be a very junior engineer.

Thanks and regards,

M. Pradyumna
On 12-Mar-2018, at 11:04 AM, gattanianil <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Dear Sefians It is nice to see that Govt. is coming with certain parameters regarding structural fraternity. I feel we should convey our vision :
  1. Architect should not be responsible for the structural defect.
  2. Liability of 10 years should start from the time possession is given to first person and not OC. As many do not take OC and also OC takes much time and possession is given before.
  3. We should modify structural stability certificate. It should mention that any structural changes done after possession cancels our responsibility.
  4. Nowadays proof checking is done. Hence design is rarely with defects. Builder and Contractor should be responsible for the defects as te workmanship is responsible. We should not be held responsible for material defects , concrete defects. In this way Builders and Contractors will be more responsible towards the work.
I hope some more points can be added. I feel you cannot be responsible for defect in steel. Steel manufacture should be responsible. How can you be responsible for RMC concrete. Let every person make themselves responsible then only we will be able to acheive balance in our industry. Thanks & Regards anil gattaniFrom: ashishphadke Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 6:54 AMTo: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)Subject: [SEFI] Latent Defect Notification of sanctioned modification by Govt. of Maharashtra, Maharashtra Regional & Town Planning Act.  Hello All Engineers,Please read the attached 'latent defect.pdf', this notification is dated 07/03/2018. I say, these kind of responsibility 'DUTIES' & are approved very promptly& what about the 'RIGHTS', our right to get apt fees. Please see attached, 'feedraft_115.pdf'.Is this fee draft approved by any government???In our constitution, I am entitled to both, 'RIGHTS' & 'DUTIES'.Where are we leading ourselves?ThanksAshish PhadkeDownload Attachments:My right?My duty & responsibility!--

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anandads
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Joined: 20 Oct 2015
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:34 pm    Post subject: Latent Defect Notification of sanctioned modification by Govt. of Maharashtra, Maharashtra Regional & Town Planning Reply with quote

Sir,
Generally failure of structures, particularly in major cities occurs
1)settlement foundation which is mainly due to inadequate knowledge & experience on subsoil conditions.


2) Thoroughly compacted backfill soil is not being understood properly by designer. Many non technical masons assume it will not settle. They don'thave knowledge of consolidation settlement.


3) Foundation adjecentto storm water drains nit thoroughlystudied with its historical courses.


4) Designers many a times over look columns in soft stories located by the side of underground sumps which induce instabilty.


5)Addition of floors without consultation of experienced engineers.


6)I observed many times some novice engineers compare adjecent structure surviving & why not theirs structure, so they encroach into factor of safety.


7)Cracks in apartment right under water source in cantilever balconies being neglected.




There are many issues, the building with poor design, bad concrete, inadequate development length might have survived because of adequate Factor of safety in steel, concrete, design mix, etc


But if foundation is not addressed or studied properly, & if any consequent failure, of structure then then the designer who has done structural analysis & design is unpardonable.


I would say as an engineer, please observe any structure you come across to the extent possible, suggest its sustainability whoever may be the builder to save disasters.
Many structures in Bangalore alone failing, very few will be in the news.


I have designed many retrofitting works of steel structures of thermal plants, r c c building, foundations of tall structures,
under-designed beams. The causes for retrofitting mainly because of lack of vision on forces & its dynamics.
An aqueduct designed by novice was implemented with major reinforcement in wrong direction. It was retrofitted after noticing major deflection during construction stage itself. It hurts me a lot when agencies go for novice consultants who quote least price for designs.


Regards
Ananda
Director
BHEC



On Mar 12, 2018 9:38 PM, "mpradyumna" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear All,
I was part of a company where we designed and built some specialised steel structures. It was difficult to convince Professors to proof check some of our design due to paucity of time and the complex nature of the structures. Hence, we came up with the concept of “philosophical check†. The professor whom we approached would check our work in a sitting of maybe 2 to 3 hours, where we would present our design and he would ask us questions and voice his apprehensions. After we satisfy him completely he would provide a certificate for the same. We would be completely responsible for the actual load application, analysis, shop drawings etc. The Professor would not be liable for any errors as he is only doing a philosophical check.

This worked out quite economical for everyone and satisfied the client also that our work has been checked by an eminent professor.

We should include this type of checking into our scheme of things. In any case a very senior Professor or Engg personality would not actually pore over all the calculations, and his insights would be more valuable than his time checking all the calculations. He would delegate the actual checking to one or more of his trusted deputies, who could be a very junior engineer.

Thanks and regards,

M. Pradyumna
On 12-Mar-2018, at 11:04 AM, gattanianil forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
Dear Sefians It is nice to see that Govt. is coming with certain parameters regarding structural fraternity. I feel we should convey our vision :
  1. Architect should not be responsible for the structural defect.
  2. Liability of 10 years should start from the time possession is given to first person and not OC. As many do not take OC and also OC takes much time and possession is given before.
  3. We should modify structural stability certificate. It should mention that any structural changes done after possession cancels our responsibility.
  4. Nowadays proof checking is done. Hence design is rarely with defects. Builder and Contractor should be responsible for the defects as te workmanship is responsible. We should not be held responsible for material defects , concrete defects. In this way Builders and Contractors will be more responsible towards the work.
I hope some more points can be added. I feel you cannot be responsible for defect in steel. Steel manufacture should be responsible. How can you be responsible for RMC concrete. Let every person make themselves responsible then only we will be able to acheive balance in our industry. Thanks & Regards anil gattaniFrom: ashishphadke Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 6:54 AMTo: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org) (general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org))Subject: [SEFI] Latent Defect Notification of sanctioned modification by Govt. of Maharashtra, Maharashtra Regional & Town Planning Act. Hello All Engineers,Please read the attached 'latent defect.pdf', this notification is dated 07/03/2018. I say, these kind of responsibility 'DUTIES' & are approved very promptly& what about the 'RIGHTS', our right to get apt fees. Please see attached, 'feedraft_115.pdf'.Is this fee draft approved by any government???In our constitution, I am entitled to both, 'RIGHTS' & 'DUTIES'.Where are we leading ourselves?ThanksAshish PhadkeDownload Attachments:My right?My duty & responsibility!--
     



     



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N. Prabhakar
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sefians,

I refer to Dr. Pradyumna's posting on the subject of proof-checking of designs and the predicaments he had in getting his design approved.

This reminds me of the Cartoons I had drawn for the Indian Concrete Journal few years ago on the same subject, which are shown below:

With best wishes,

N. Prabhakar
Chartered Structural Engineer
Vasai (E), Pin 401 208



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abhio
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Joined: 08 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Prabhakar Sir,

Your cartoons hit right on the spot, as usual. Unfortunately, the concept of proof checking isn't well understood in India. Most people seem to think that checking the analysis model means only checking that my computer gives the same result as yours!

Coincidentally, I am checking a structure right now, which has been designed using a software package which I don't have (as in your first cartoon). We have simply made a parallel check in STAAD, and caught some errors!

In another project, we had to check designs done by the Chinese code, by Chinese engineers. Rather than trying to understand the "Chinese English" of the design reports, we simply made a parallel design as per IS codes, and approved the drawings accordingly.

I hope you could also share your experiences with (or as) proof consultants, which will help the young engineers on this forum.

Warm regards,

Abhijeet Oundhakar
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slsindia
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Joined: 02 Jul 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:27 am    Post subject: Latent Defect Notification of sanctioned modification by Govt. of Maharashtra, Maharashtra Regional & Town Planning Reply with quote

Dear Mr Prabhakar,


Cartoons are nice.


We come acrossed the same with university professors and some approval agencies, who appoint new joinees.


with best regards,





C SUBRAHMANYAM
CHIEF CONSULTANT
SLS STRUCTO MECH CONSULTANT
49-14-15, 2ND FLOOR, LALITHA NAGAR,
VISAKHAPATNAM-530016
Ph/ Fax: 0891-2515246
MO: 9849598424


On Tue, Mar 13, 2018 at 11:06 AM, N. Prabhakar <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear Sefians,

I refer to Dr. Pradyumna's posting on the subject of proof-checking of designs and the predicaments he had in getting his design approved.

This reminds me of the Cartoons I had drawn for the Indian Concrete Journal few years ago on the same subject, which are shown below:

With best wishes,

N. Prabhakar
Chartered Structural Engineer
Vasai (E), Pin 401 208
     



     
Download Attachments:
Cartoon-5-p1c8esgtk51vsb151310hfb3vom.png
Cartoon-6-p1c8eshp041sc16j9hqk127543u.png




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arulsteel
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:57 am    Post subject: Negativism and megalomania in SEFI forum Reply with quote

Dear Friends


  This is an unwarranted discussion.  The structural engineering profession in India must be built on mutual trust and respect. As one gets old, one must become humble and show less and less megalomania.  One must respect the fellow professionals and placate the professionals who are under need.


Some people "paint" everybody with the same brush, cynical to say.  They are many individuals who do a diligent work on the design checking.  Leave the odd one who may do such things.  I think individuals should stop self promotion in SEFI forum.  SEFI is a place for scholastic learning and mutual learning from fellow professionals.


Many of the so called "innovative designers" do not even know the nuances of the designs they submit for proof checking.  If you ask a deeper question they call their office looking for the odd fresh graduate engineer who did the modelling and design. The problem is that they take 2 months for design but want the proof checking completed in 2 days.  The offer of young engineers, is not a requirement from the proof checker but the offer of the structural designer for their selfish interest of saving time.  Those who put these posts : put your hand in the heart and tell if this is true or not.  Give adequate time , the proof checkers will also do a good job.  After all you have not designed a rocket that goes to the sun.


Stop accusing fellow professionals  and stop self promotion.


regards
arul iitm
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mpradyumna
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject: Latent Defect Notification of sanctioned modification by Govt. of Maharashtra, Maharashtra Regional & Town Planning Reply with quote

Dear All,
Mr. Prabhakar’s cartoons are apt.

We actually had experienced the events described in the second cartoon in a major project where a major contractor entrusted the job of designing the steel work to us because they could not themselves do it. But they insisted on checking our design. Their junior would get briefed by our juniors. And their seniors would later interrogate our seniors based on the junior’s briefing. We are still laughing at this after many years.

Thanks and regards,

M. PradyumnaOn 13-Mar-2018, at 11:06 AM, N. Prabhakar <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Dear Sefians,I refer to Dr. Pradyumna's posting on the subject of proof-checking of designs and the predicaments he had in getting his design approved.This reminds me of the Cartoons I had drawn for the Indian Concrete Journal few years ago on the same subject, which are shown below: With best wishes,N. PrabhakarChartered Structural EngineerVasai (E), Pin 401 208
--

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