www.sefindia.org

STRUCTURAL ENGINEERING FORUM OF INDIA [SEFI]

 Forum SubscriptionsSubscriptions DigestDigest Preferences   FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups  RegisterRegister FAQSecurity Tips FAQDonate
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log in to websiteLog in to websiteLog in to websiteLog in to forum 
Warning: Make sure you scan the downloaded attachment with updated antivirus tools  before opening them. They may contain viruses.
Use online scanners
here and here to upload downloaded attachment to check for safety.

FAQ on “Alternatives to River Sand”.
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topicReply to topic Thank Post    www.sefindia.org Forum Index -> SEFI General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Dr. N. Subramanian
General Sponsor
General Sponsor


Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 5264
Location: Gaithersburg, MD, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2018 4:00 am    Post subject: FAQ on “Alternatives to River Sand”. Reply with quote

Dear All,

For the benefit of engineers in this forum, Er Vijay Kulkarni (Former editor of ICJ and Principal Consultant, Ready Mixed Concrete Manufacturers Association(RMCMA) India, has prepared aa small FAQ on “Alternatives to River Sand”. I am enclosing the same.

Best of luck

Regards
NS



Warning: Make sure you scan the downloaded attachment with updated antivirus tools  before opening them. They may contain viruses.
Use online scanners
here and here to upload downloaded attachment to check for safety.
FAQs Alternatives to River sand-Vijay Kulkarni.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  FAQs Alternatives to River sand-Vijay Kulkarni.pdf
 Filesize:  842.35 KB
 Downloaded:  209 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kapildingare
...
...


Joined: 15 May 2009
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Dr.N Subramanian  Sir for posting this article from Shri Vijay Kulkarni who happens to be Principal Consultant with Association of Ready Mixed Concrete Manufacturer's .
         From last couple of years RMC plants and CONCRETE PUMPS has become very common for concrete making and placing.
           With river sand problem we have also shifted to manufactured sand in concrete making.
          I am not sure whether Shri Vijay Kulkarni is on this platform but through our Respected Dr NS SIr I would appeal to Vijay Kulkarni to throw some light on these points.
1) How many RMC plants are following restrictions of maximum percentage of partical size passing through size 150 microns to 15. My observation is at most of plants in city like Pune use of quantity of dust in manufactured sand is more than 50 percentage.
2) Before RMC was in practice I had rarely seen cracks to freshly laid concrete slab top surface which is very common observation now a days , even widh of crack is alarming.
3) Concrete Pumps has reduced maximum size of stone aggregate from 20 mm to 10 mm..... what could be it's effect on durability.....there are many study article over it but all gives stress on Compressive Strength.... specially on how with same cement quantity how can they are getting better crushing strength with increase in proportion of material with particle size passing through sieve 150 microns (dust)..... before RMC we were advising to use 25 mm agreegate size for concreteing in footings, mass concrete....
4) With compulsive use of RMC plants , Concrete Pumps and use of manufactured sand with dust percentage as mentioned above....where are concept of interlocking of aggregates.... effect of largest size of stone aggregate on required quantity of cement paste.... really puzzling.....
5) Now a days with reduction in use of maximum size of stone aggregate from 20 mm to almost below 10 mm and with use of sand with such large amount of dust presence.....it has become very difficult to judge concrete quality with just seeing it..... because with such large amount of dust it even M15 concrete looks like of gread M 30.....
6)With reduction of maximum size of partical in stone aggregate from 20 mmto 10 mm and with using of fine aggregate with lot of dust in it ,RMC makers have solved there problem of pumping... they are giving very fantastic finish to Concrete surfaces....they are giving crushing strength reports also....but after such cracks to Concrete slabs....even I have seen cracks to top suface of footing concrete.....are we not compromising on any other properties of Concrete.... like durability...are we making Concrete brittel....so many questions......even to facilitate pump using it is leading to type of concrete which when placed for Concrete slab leads to a layer of paste on top surface....dust...small aggregate size.... cracks....really puzzling....and with reports of crushing strength....
                   Respected NS SIr and other SEFIANS please share your experiences... give your thoughts over this and share. Thanks.....
                               Kapil Dingare
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dr. N. Subramanian
General Sponsor
General Sponsor


Joined: 21 Feb 2008
Posts: 5264
Location: Gaithersburg, MD, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am giving below the response I received from Er Vijay Kulkarni

Dear Dr Subramanian,
I have read the comments of Er. Kapil Dingare. I am trying to provide point-by-point reply to the comments.

1.     The number of RMC plants in India is growing at a fast pace. However, as I understand, neither the Ready Mixed Concrete Manufacturers’ Association (RMCMA) nor any other organization possesses authentic data on the number of RMC plants in the country, leave apart the data on the equipment deployed or the materials used by these plants. Hence, I cannot provide answer to the first question regarding restrictions followed by the RMC plants in Pune on the quality of aggregates. However, RMCMA does provide guidelines on some relevant technical issues and the publication of FAQs on “Alternatives to Natural Sand” was one such effort.

Incidentally, I would like to provide one small clarification. The Note 1 of Table 6 of IS 383:2016 allowsincrease in the permissible % passing through 150 micron sieve to 20%; thus the permissible limit for CSS should be considered as 20% and not 15%. It is well known that increased % of microfinestend to increase the water demand and hence it is essential to restrict the maximum amount of microfines in concrete. Yet, certain % of microfinesare needed to achieve best particle packing in aggregate skeleton. Recent research done in the USA (ACI Materials Journal July-August 2006, pp. 258-264) has reported the following findings: “Good quality concrete can be made with amounts of microfines (particles passing 75µ sieve) as high as 15%. In fact, most of the concrete made with microfine aggregates in both projects surpassed the concrete made with natural sand in terms of strength, resistance to chloride ion penetration, and abrasion” The Australian Guide to the Specification and Use of Manufactured Sand in Concrete (CCAA T60) published by Cement, Concrete & Aggregates Australia, allows up to 20% of materials passing 75 µm sieve.

Since the aggregate business is mainly concentrated in the hands of unorganized sector in India, we suggest that consultants needto explicitly specify the requirements of aggregates. For example, in the jobs that I am presently involved, we specify a stricter frequency of conducting sieve analysis and have also specified the ranges of % passing through 600, 300, 150 and 75 micron sieves. We also insist on submission of a running average chart of the % passing through various sieves in Excel sheet and verify the same during our monthly audit of the RMC plant and the laboratory.
In recent times, newer technologies in the processing manufactured sand have come up. These involve use of either air screening system or fine separation with the use of water. Such sand, which provides around 8-12% passing from 150 micron sieve, is now available in Mumbai. However, it is comparatively costly.
2.     As regards the issue of cracking, I do not agree with the contention that RMC is responsible for cracking. For explaining this in more detail, I am enclosing a brief write up I had prepared recently and send the same to some other magazine for possible publication. The tile of the write up is “Non-structural Cracking in Concrete: Can it be considered as "Defect"?” It is little longish, but the readers may find it useful.
3.     I do not agree with the contention that the pumping of concrete has led to the reduction in the MSA from 20 mm to 10 mm. The MSA is specified by the structural designer, based on the reinforcement spacing. For better particle packing both 20 and 10 mm aggregate fractions are needed. The use of 10 mm MSA will result in increasing the paste content (thereby cement content), which in turn will increase the cost. The RMC producer will obviously not prefer this, unless the client/consultant specifically demands the MSA of 10mm. incidentally, we have done pumping of concrete with 25 mm MSA. One needs to pay careful attention to the mix design exercise for this purpose.


Vijay Kulkarni



Warning: Make sure you scan the downloaded attachment with updated antivirus tools  before opening them. They may contain viruses.
Use online scanners
here and here to upload downloaded attachment to check for safety.
Non-structural Cracking in Concrete-Is it a defect-Vijay Kulkarni.docx
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  Non-structural Cracking in Concrete-Is it a defect-Vijay Kulkarni.docx
 Filesize:  228.29 KB
 Downloaded:  89 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shishir_dhawade1
SEFI Member
SEFI Member


Joined: 04 Mar 2018
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:30 am    Post subject: FAQ on “Alternatives to River Sand”. Reply with quote

I have very bad experience about R.M.C.I am practicing in Pune.The RMC and crushed sand plants are run by mistly illiterate people .They are connected with some political party.Tge sand may contain murum!Percentage of powder in sand may be 75!There is always severe cracking in concrete.we do not know quality of cement ;chemicals ;aggregates and most important quality of persons working at plant.They mostly are not engineers.we do not know quantity of fly ash added.It is true for even organised sector.All literature etc. and our discussions are useless for RMC



From: "Dr. N. Subramanian" <forum@sefindia.org>
Sent: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 17:49:08 GMT+0530
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] FAQ on “Alternatives to River Sand”.




/* The original subSilver Theme for phpBB version 2+ Created by subBlue design http://www.subBlue.com NOTE: These CSS definitions are stored within the main page body so that you can use the phpBB2 theme administration centre. When you have finalised your style you could cut the final CSS code and place it in an external file, deleting this section to save bandwidth.*/ /* General page style. The scroll bar colours only visible in IE5.5+ */body {     background-color: #E5E5E5;     font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;     font-size: 11;     color: #000000;}/* General font families for common tags */font,th,td,p { font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif }p, td          { font-size : 11; color : #000000; }a:link,a:active,a:visited { color : #006699; }a:hover          { text-decoration: underline; color : #DD6900; }hr     { height: 0px; border: solid #D1D7DC 0px; border-top-width: 1px;}h1,h2          { font-family: "Trebuchet MS", Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size : 22px; font-weight : bold; text-decoration : none; line-height : 120%; color : #000000;}/* This is the border line & background colour round the entire page */.bodyline     { background-color: #FFFFFF; border: 1px #FFFFFF solid; }/* General text */.gen { font-size : 12px; }.genmed { font-size : 11px; }.gensmall { font-size : 10px; line-height: 12px}.gen,.genmed,.gensmall { color : #000000; }a.gen,a.genmed,a.gensmall { color: #006699; text-decoration: none; }a.gen:hover,a.genmed:hover,a.gensmall:hover     { color: #DD6900; text-decoration: underline; }/* Forum title: Text and link to the forums used in: index.php */.forumlink          { font-weight: bold; font-size: 12px; color : #006699; }a.forumlink      { text-decoration: none; color : #006699; }a.forumlink:hover{ text-decoration: underline; color : #DD6900; }/* The content of the posts (body of text) */.postbody { font-size : 12px; line-height: 18px}a.postlink:link     { text-decoration: none; color : #006699 }a.postlink:visited { text-decoration: none; color : #5493B4; }a.postlink:hover { text-decoration: underline; color : #DD6900}/* Quote & Code blocks */.code {     font-family: Courier, 'Courier New', sans-serif; font-size: 11px; color: #006600;     background-color: #FAFAFA; border: #D1D7DC; border-style: solid;     border-left-width: 1px; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px}.quote {     font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11px; color: #444444; line-height: 125%;     background-color: #FAFAFA; border: #D1D7DC; border-style: solid;     border-left-width: 1px; border-top-width: 1px; border-right-width: 1px; border-bottom-width: 1px} -->

     

     Dear Dr Subramanian,

I have read the comments of Er. Kapil Dingare. I am trying to provide point-by-point reply to the comments.



1.     The number of RMC plants in India is growing at a fast pace. However, as I understand, neither the Ready Mixed Concrete Manufacturers’ Association (RMCMA) nor any other organization possesses authentic data on the number of RMC plants in the country, leave apart the data on the equipment deployed or the materials used by these plants. Hence, I cannot provide answer to the first question regarding restrictions followed by the RMC plants in Pune on the quality of aggregates. However, RMCMA does provide guidelines on some relevant technical issues and the publication of FAQs on “Alternatives to Natural Sand” was one such effort.



Incidentally, I would like to provide one small clarification. The Note 1 of Table 6 of IS 383:2016 allowsincrease in the permissible % passing through 150 micron sieve to 20%; thus the permissible limit for CSS should be considered as 20% and not 15%. It is well known that increased % of microfinestend to increase the water demand and hence it is essential to restrict the maximum amount of microfines in concrete. Yet, certain % of microfinesare needed to achieve best particle packing in aggregate skeleton. Recent research done in the USA (ACI Materials Journal July-August 2006, pp. 258-264) has reported the following findings: “Good quality concrete can be made with amounts of microfines (particles passing 75µ sieve) as high as 15%. In fact, most of the concrete made with microfine aggregates in both projects surpassed the concrete made with natural sand in terms of strength, resistance to chloride ion penetration, and abrasion” The Australian Guide to the Specification and Use of Manufactured Sand in Concrete (CCAA T60) published by Cement, Concrete & Aggregates Australia, allows up to 20% of materials passing 75 µm sieve.



Since the aggregate business is mainly concentrated in the hands of unorganized sector in India, we suggest that consultants needto explicitly specify the requirements of aggregates. For example, in the jobs that I am presently involved, we specify a stricter frequency of conducting sieve analysis and have also specified the ranges of % passing through 600, 300, 150 and 75 micron sieves. We also insist on submission of a running average chart of the % passing through various sieves in Excel sheet and verify the same during our monthly audit of the RMC plant and the laboratory.

In recent times, newer technologies in the processing manufactured sand have come up. These involve use of either air screening system or fine separation with the use of water. Such sand, which provides around 8-12% passing from 150 micron sieve, is now available in Mumbai. However, it is comparatively costly.

2.     As regards the issue of cracking, I do not agree with the contention that RMC is responsible for cracking. For explaining this in more detail, I am enclosing a brief write up I had prepared recently and send the same to some other magazine for possible publication. The tile of the write up is “Non-structural Cracking in Concrete: Can it be considered as "Defect"?” It is little longish, but the readers may find it useful.

3.     I do not agree with the contention that the pumping of concrete has led to the reduction in the MSA from 20 mm to 10 mm. The MSA is specified by the structural designer, based on the reinforcement spacing. For better particle packing both 20 and 10 mm aggregate fractions are needed. The use of 10 mm MSA will result in increasing the paste content (thereby cement content), which in turn will increase the cost. The RMC producer will obviously not prefer this, unless the client/consultant specifically demands the MSA of 10mm. incidentally, we have done pumping of concrete with 25 mm MSA. One needs to pay careful attention to the mix design exercise for this purpose.

     







     
Download Attachments:
Non-structural Cracking in Concrete-Is it a defect-Vijay Kulkarni.docx

Posted via Email
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kapildingare
...
...


Joined: 15 May 2009
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hallo SEFIAN’s
                                                                                 Many thanks Dr. Subramanian Sir for sharing reply of Er. Vijay Kulkarni, over my concerns. I am happy that RMCMA is providing guidelines to relevant technical issues of RMC plants. Publication of FAQ’s on ‘Alternatives to natural sand ‘ by Er Vijay Kulkarni is one such guideline, so I suppose this SEFI platform and Er Vijay Kulkarni as platform and best person to share my concern about  cracks over freshly laid concrete.
My main concern that almost all RMC plants are using manufactured sand with fine particles (passing through 150 microns) more than 50%, though IS 383:2016 has allowed 15%as limit to this with allowance of 5% and thus limiting it to 20%....So most RMC plants are surpassing this limit by 150% and RMCMA or any other organization has no answer to it nor data over this….Here Er Vijay Kulkarni has given reference of  recent research done in USA and Australian guidelines , both of which DO restrict this use of fine particles(passing through 150 microns)  to 15% and 20% respectively.
                                                                 Then my concern become more intense how we are using this concrete from branded, unbranded RMS manufacturer’s with % of fines more than 50% in manufactured sand for buildings of even 20+ floors.
                                                                 Here Er. Vijay Kulkarni also mentions that aggregate business is mainly in hands of unorganized sector , but in recent times newer technologies for manufacturing of sand have come up where air screening system is used to separate fines from sand…..But very bad but true even 5% of sand crushers or RMC plants are not using it. Isn’t it alarming…..shouldn’t we object …protest….reject such concrete……
As regards to issue of cracking over freshly concrete surface Er. Vijay Kulkarni has attached a brief write up ‘Non Structural Cracking: Can it be considered as Defect?’
                                                            This write up starts with a sentence “If the complaints received by RMC manufacturers are analyzed, it would reveal that overwhelming majority of complaints pertains to cracking of concrete”. This statement itself makes it clear that problem of cracking of freshly laid concrete is so serious.
                                                             Here Er. Vijay Kulkarni has given a good Cracking Tree from technical report from Concrete Society U.K., which is very precise. This Cracking Tree automatically leads my concern about crack on freshly laid concrete to reason of Shrinkage that too Plastic Shrinkage. Here Er. Vijay Kulkarni mentions that crack free concrete is MYTH!…. I DO accept that, when cracks are micro cracks, extremely thin and not wide, not interconnected as described in his article. Even cracks like crazing which are not deep and not wide but are interconnected and visible are accepted and can be results of early drying of concrete. Width of cracks in crazing type is much less and within limit of 0.3 mm as mentioned in IS 456.
                                                               Up to these types of cracks we can, with some calculated risks, say that these cracks are NOT HARMFUL and will not have any serious adverse effects over preservation of reinforcing steel nor upon durability of concrete structures.
                                                                 But my concern is not about these types of cracks but about cracks on freshly laid concrete which are conspicuous in visibility, which are not interconnected but are very WIDE with even width of 1 mm and deep up to even 25 mm….how can group these types of cracks in non defect category…. How can we neglect it? And these types of cracks we are observing in exclusively when concrete is from some RMC plant. ‘Cracking Tree ‘suggests that this crack is due to ‘Plastic Shrinkage’.
                                                                     Now why so much of Plastic Shrinkage which results in such cracks…………..
Plastic Shrinkage generally increases with decrease with maximum size of aggregate size in concrete. Here most RMC plants with their poor capacity of concrete pumps, to facilitate pumping have reduced MSA from 20 mm to 10mm resulting in more Plastic shrinkage resulting in more cracks.
Increase of % of dust in manufactured sand to more than 50% and use of lesser size of aggregate is increasing demand of GEL to form concrete also to facilitate pumping demand of water increases , this is resulting in more gel, which is resulting in more bleeding ….so more Plastic Shrinkage ….so more cracks.
Even larger distances in cities are compelling RMC manufacturers to use retarders…..its effect on increasing initial setting time and initial normal drying, so early shrinkage without normal strength needs study with respect to Plastic Shrinkage cracks.  
These types of cracks are wide and deep enough to enter water in it, then how can we say these cracks are not harmful and will not have any serious adverse effects over preservation of reinforcing steel nor upon durability of concrete structures? These types of cracks are due to Plastic Shrinkage of concrete, and exclusive reason of this Plastic Shrinkage can be material of aggregate and manufactured sand RMC plants are using.
Shouldn’t we consider these type of cracks as DEFECTS and HARMFUL.


                                                           I request SEFIAN’S to share their concerns and experiences and guide me. Thanks.

                                                                      KAPIL DINGARE
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kapildingare
...
...


Joined: 15 May 2009
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hallo SEFIANS....

                         With the continuation of this subject , I would like to let everyone know where quality of concrete with RMC plants has reached ..  Chief Engineer of Public Works Department, Pune Circle , Mharashtra State Government has banned concrete from RMC manufacturer....see attached letter , annexure....
                  I request Dr NS SIr to please forward it to ER. Kulkarni... Technical consultant to Association of RMC Manufacturers.


  Thanks.

          Kapil Dingare.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kapildingare
...
...


Joined: 15 May 2009
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PL see attachment for my post.


Warning: Make sure you scan the downloaded attachment with updated antivirus tools  before opening them. They may contain viruses.
Use online scanners
here and here to upload downloaded attachment to check for safety.
Crushed_sand_use.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  Crushed_sand_use.pdf
 Filesize:  681.12 KB
 Downloaded:  40 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
es_jayakumar
General Sponsor
General Sponsor


Joined: 24 Nov 2011
Posts: 1156
Location: Cochin

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Kapil Dingare,
Mr.Kulkarni will definitely understand Marathi, being a Maharashtrian, as can be understood from his surname...., but, not us....
Please post a synopsis of that letter by CE, PWD, Pune.
Which place of Maharashtra you are from ?
I enclose an article that enunciates the superiority of good quality M-Sand over river sand for making better concrete.

E S Jayakumar



Warning: Make sure you scan the downloaded attachment with updated antivirus tools  before opening them. They may contain viruses.
Use online scanners
here and here to upload downloaded attachment to check for safety.
M-sand Vs. River sand.pdf
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  M-sand Vs. River sand.pdf
 Filesize:  596.22 KB
 Downloaded:  33 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spsvasan
...
...


Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 311

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Er.Kapil Dingare

I share your apprehensions about the quality of RMC at present

But I have faced plastic shrinkage cracks not only with RMC but also with site mixed concrete whenever I used superplasticisers.

If the concrete volume is large or if the available space in a site is small RMC may become necessary

I take following precautions whenever I have to  use RMC:

[1] Site should be organised to use the RMC as early as possible

[2] Slump test should be conducted before using RMC at site

[3] Apart from the cubes cast at the plant by the RMC agency, additional cubes are cast at site in the presence of the RMC supervisor.

[4] The cubes are cured in sump and tested in an independent reliable laboratory at the Owner's expense

[5] Immediately on concreting any portion, one site engineer closely inspects the concrete surface for plastic shrinkage cracks.

[6] Any crack developing during initial setting time is repaired then and there

[7] Curing is commenced by sprinkling water immediately after initial set [Thumb pressure will not make any impression after initial set]

[8]Despite these precautions, if plastic shrinkage cracks develop, the cracks will be pressure grouted repeatedly until leakage of water through the slab stops.

I advise my client that he should not go for the lowest cost RMC but should opt for the agency with good track record. I also advise the client not to bargain too much with the RMC agency

With these precautions, I think my clients get fairly good quality concrete

Hope other SEFIANS will also share their experience.

S.P.Srinivasan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
es_jayakumar
General Sponsor
General Sponsor


Joined: 24 Nov 2011
Posts: 1156
Location: Cochin

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Srinivasan Sir,
Thanks for your valuable guidance. I request you to participate in the discussions in SFEI, more frequently, to share your theoretical and practical knowledge.
In our Department (BSNL Civil Wing), it is customary for the Officer to visit the RMC plant in advance to check the Mix design details, quality & proportion of ingredients proposed to be used and to ensure that the cement content is not less than what is stipulated in the Contract Agreement.
Regards,
E S Jayakumar
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topicReply to topic Thank Post    www.sefindia.org Forum Index -> SEFI General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


© 2003, 2008 SEFINDIA, Indian Domain Registration
Publishing or acceptance of an advertisement is neither a guarantee nor endorsement of the advertiser's product or service. advertisement policy