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Experience of PDC and PC
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This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies. Thank Post    www.sefindia.org Forum Index -> E-CONFERENCE on SSD-II 06(19914) REQUIREMENTS FOR STRUCTURAL DESIGN
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vadalkar
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:15 am    Post subject: Experience of PDC and PC Reply with quote

Dear All,

On behalf of SEFI and Indian Society of Structural Engineers ( ISSE) , I , Hemant Vadalkar welcome you to this e-conference on BIS document SSDII/06/(19914) related to "REQUIREMENTS FOR STRUCTURAL DESIGN AND PROOF CHECKING CONSULTANCY SERVICES FOR STRUCTURES"

I am opening a new thread Experience of PDC and PC

Clause 9 in the document talks about minimum qualifications and experience of Principal Design consultant ( PDC) and Proof Checking Consultant (PC).

Different Municipal Corporations have their own regulations and rules for registering structural engineers. Even National Building code 2016 has given guidelines for this.

Whether experience criteria given in this document overrides other regulations ?

Secondly, who will verify the experience of PDC and PC and maintain registration records of all Structural Engineers either at state level or at National level?

Also, generally registration is provided for building structures. What will be the mechanism to judge the experience in special structures and who will certify it?

Academic faculty may not have practical design experience but they may have better knowledge in other areas like research oriented subjects, testing related matters, advance analysis modules, various software applications etc. The present document is insisting to have design experience for taking up assignment as PC. So, no faculty without design experience can be Proof checking consultant. We need to have balance between academic knowledge and practicing design experience.

I request you all to share your views and suggestions on this thread.

Regards.
Hemant Vadalkar
( Moderator)
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vikram.jeet
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q & E for Designers / Consultants :

As said in some previous posting regarding Liscencing of Consultants , 5 categories of Consultants have been identified as Class A, B, C, D , And Spl Class.

In my humble opinion  following needs to be fixed : ( * nos of years exclusively in design work to be considered , and shall not to be taken fm yr of qualification)
For PDC
Class A -  Btech with minimum 20years*  Or Mtech with minimum 15years*
Class B - Btech with minimum  15 years*  Or  Mtech with minimum 10 years*
Class C - Btech with minimum  10 years*  or Mtech with minimum  7 yrs*
Class D -  Btech with 7 yrs * or Mtech with 5 yrs* Or  Retired Str Expert  Btech  with no office/ staff i.e One man office consultant ,                      
  
Spl Class Consultants - Professor s , Acamecians , Researchers Generally not engaged in Prime design work , only act as second opinion / PC on selected works

The above experience is for Design signing Authority
He can have Design ers of varying experience in his organization


FOR PC
The experience shall be  = ( Above nos of yrs +5 yrs* ) , Qualifications same as above
Idea is that a senior expert acting as Design Reviewer must be more experienced
The above exp is for proof check signing Engineer , he can have ers of varying exp in his office

Spl Class Consultants - Professors , Academia,  Researchers as PC for some selected works of their specialisation or can also give opinions on certain tricky issues where conflict in opinions of PDC & PC


Last edited by vikram.jeet on Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:15 am; edited 2 times in total
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vikram.jeet
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The experience requirements provided in draft code  for PDC & PC are based on municipal licensing  documents which are not satisfactory for engineers engaged in str design work. An engineer must work for 10 to 15 yrs in Consulancy str firms under experienced designers to develop skills .


Further to add in present context :
My viewpoint is  that unless an engineer continually spend 15 to 20 years in design of structures , he may not be aware of nitty gritty of design detailing,  completeness . Design is not only feeding input and reading output  though this  also needs maturity . Time factor to gain maturity in designs is necessary
.

Just to say that :

A fresher entering designs is just a yet born child for about 2-3 yrs
After experience of 5 -7 yrs he is a tiny tot  of nursery school
After 15 -20 yrs , he reach adulthood in str  designs

Further exp make him more and more wise , mature and cautious.
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alpa_sheth
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Er. Vikram Jeet and Er. Vadalkar,

I'm not sure if having a Degree which is 10 years or 15 years old qualifies us to be Structural Engineers. When we say 5 or 10 years experience, how are we measuring that experience? I could have 10 years experience on site and now switch to Structural Design- does it qualify me  to straight away design a large structure?

I therefore believe a more nuanced system of licensing is required where the credentials are carefully checked, the design experience under a senior structural designer is verified and some form of competency test- be it a  viva or preferably  a written test is conducted for younger designers. There could be a grandfather clause for persons with 20+ years experience.


best regards,
Alpa

vikram.jeet wrote:
Q & E for Designers / Consultants :

As said in some previous posting regarding Liscencing of Consultants , 5 categories of Consultants have been identified as Class A, B, C, D , And Spl Class.

In my humble opinion  following needs to be fixed :
For PDC
Class A -  Btech with minimum 20years  Or Mtech with minimum 15years
Class B - Btech with minimum  15 years  Or  Mtech with minimum 10 years
Class C - Btech with minimum  10 years  or Mtech with minimum  7 yrs
Class D -  Btech with 7 yrs  or Mtech with 5 yrs Or  Retired Str Expert  Btech  with no office/ staff i.e One man office consultant ,                      
  
Spl Class Consultants - Professor s , Acamecians , Researchers Generally not engaged in Prime design work , only act as second opinion / PC on selected works

The above experience is for Design signing Authority
He can have Design ers of varying experience in his organization


FOR PC
The experience shall be  = ( Above nos of yrs +5 yrs ) , Qualifications same as above
Idea is that a senior expert acting as Design Reviewer must be more experienced
The above exp is for proof check signing Engineer , he can have ers of varying exp in his office

Spl Class Consultants - Professors , Academia,  Researchers as PC for some selected works of their specialisation or can also give opinions on certain tricky issues where conflict in opinions of PDC & PC
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bhsolanki
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 8:05 am    Post subject: Regarding Table-1 Qualification of PDC & PC Reply with quote

I agree with all members who focused on this qualification criteria, I have below points & my opinion to share about it

A. Why there should be minimum Educational qualification of Masters Degree in Structural Engineering to be either Designer(PDC) or Checker (PC) ?

Opinion: At B.E Level students do not have FEM in their syllabus, not learning Response Spectrum Method, Time History Method (Which is essential for any Machine Foundation design when Frequency domain analysis is required & less used in Seismic Analysis of Buildings), Advance RCC, Theory of Plate & Shell etc are not aware by a Bachelor degree holder.

In fact in Gujarat Technological University right now, Major Structural Engineering related fundamental subjects are now elective (Refer: https://www.gtu.ac.in/Syllabus/Syllabus.aspx) like Structural Analysis-II, Earthquake Engineering, Design of Reinforced Concrete Structures, Prestressed Concrete Structures etc.

How a Bachelor Degree holder can understand concepts and its application which he never taught, Someone may argue that It can be self learn with experience, True ! but that ratio is very low in Indian scenario. And if everyone is llowed to be designer & Checker with only Bachelor Degree with experience than there will not be any motivation for any candidate to pursue Master degree.

Professionally such policy in IS code will de-valuate the Master degree, Why one should not start practicing after B.E and after experience it will be treated same as Master degree holder.

Same way In Architecture field also, Architects well preserved their domain of professional work by making council of architecture,and now in majority of government/semi government tenders are compulsory put conditions architect who is registered with COA, and COA only allows to register who has at least B.Arch Degree.

I never understand, if civil engineering has bigger domain, and it can do all what an architect can do, more to that it can do supervision and designs also, than Why Civil Engineers are not allowed to be in role of Architect ! Just because Architects made COA and preserve there domain by not sharing their professional work.

Similarly I think a person with minimum Masters degree in educational qualification and with relevant experience should only allowed to be designer and checker. By this means A Structural Engineer in true sense will be recognized professionally and only a Structural Engineer will be allowed to do their domain work.

Here in Gujarat GCPCE authority (https://gcpce.gujarat.gov.in/) has made same mistake by allowing Diploma & Bachelor degree holder to be designer & allowing them to appear in exam for engineer license, which In my opinion not fair, I know lots of Diploma & Degree holders who don't even know the IS 13920 Standard how they will going to use software who uses this IS code & Its results with-its importance in seismic prone zones.

B. What should be Criteria ?

1. Class-4 License for 5m or less for Buildings OR 200sqmt or less carpet area : M.E/M.Tech in Structural Engineering with 1 Year Experience and Min. 5 Buildings Design which is proof checked.

2. Class-3 License for 15m or less for Buildings OR 500sqmt or less carpet area : M.E/M.Tech in Structural Engineering with 2 Year Experience and Min. 5 Buildings Design which is proof checked.

3. Class-2 License for 30m or less for Buildings OR 2500 to 3000 sqmt or less carpet area : M.E/M.Tech in Structural Engineering with 6 Year Experience and Min. 3 Buildings Design which is proof checked.

4. Class-1 License for 60m to 80m Tall with No Criteria in Carper Area: M.E/M.Tech in Structural Engineering with 10 Year Experience and Min. 3 Buildings Design which is proof checked.

5. Special Class-A: Minimum One Building 80m or more Tall designed: M.E/M.Tech in Structural Engineering with 15 Year Experience and Min. 1 Buildings Design which is proof checked.

6. Special Class-B: This special class should have categories of each special type of structure like Liquid Retaining Structure design, Bridges (Steel,RCC,PT), Transmission & Mast Towers, Hydraulic Structures, Industrial Roof Sheds (PEB, Truss & Portal type etc), Oil & Gas Equipment Support Structures design & Lifting analysis related experience, Off shore Structures, Buried Pipeline Structures.

Each structure may be classified with a tag and license holder can expand as per their experience.

C. To prevent monopoly: Those who holds license must issue experience to minimum 2 to 8 new learners per year to renew their license compulsory. This may be added into Local Authority CDCR and not in IS Code.


Last edited by bhsolanki on Thu Sep 01, 2022 6:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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gautam chattopadhyay
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 8:30 am    Post subject: Experience of PDC and PC Reply with quote

Very much needed. Though CMC, MCD, NDMC have provisions for ESE but many such ESEs have been found owning fake degrees and mostly act on whims of real estate agents. 

On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 8:46 AM vadalkar <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:

Quote:
           Dear All,

On behalf of SEFI and Indian Society of Structural Engineers ( ISSE) , I , Hemant Vadalkar welcome you to this e-conference on BIS document SSDII/06/(19914) related to "REQUIREMENTS FOR STRUCTURAL DESIGN AND PROOF CHECKING CONSULTANCY SERVICES FOR STRUCTURES"

I am opening a new thread Experience of PDC and PC

Clause 9 in the document talks about minimum qualifications and experience of Principal Design consultant ( PDC) and Proof Checking Consultant (PC).

Different Municipal Corporations have their own regulations and rules for registering structural engineers. Even National Building code 2016 has given guidelines for this.

Whether experience criteria given in this document overrides other regulations ?

Secondly, who will verify the experience of PDC and PC and maintain registration records of all Structural Engineers either at state level or at National level?

Also, generally registration is provided for building structures. What will be the mechanism to judge the experience in special structures and who will certify it?

Academic faculty may not have practical design experience but they may have better knowledge in other areas like research oriented subjects, testing related matters, advance analysis modules, various software applications etc. The present document is insisting to have design experience for taking up assignment as PC. So, no faculty without design experience can be Proof checking consultant. We need to have balance between academic knowledge and practicing design experience.

I request you all to share your views and suggestions on this thread.

Regards.
Hemant Vadalkar
( Moderator)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     



     




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srinivasarao3
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 8:30 am    Post subject: Welcome to e-conference for Discussion on New BIS document SSD-II 06 (19914) : REQUIREMENTS FOR STRUCTURAL DESIGN AND PR Reply with quote

Dear Sir/ Madam,

Academicians of 5 to 6 years’ experience, directly taking as team leads may not be help much, which subject they are teaching in college also important.

Professional fee guideline and min wages of employee it will help.




Warm Regards,

Srinivasa Rao Bollimuntha
Technical Director -Structure

DesignTree Service Consultants Pvt Ltd | Consulting Engineers | #
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vikram.jeet
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very pertinent  point by respected Madam Alpa regarding nos of yrs experience .
As per my posting ,  the experience  for PDC /PD  shall be  counted not from year of Qualifications,  but nos of years working in structural design  firm / Structural design office of Govt / semi - Govt / pvt enterprise / Practicing as Str Consultant I.e Only design experience  to be considered.


A field engineer may not able to carry design job even if he has 30 yrs exp at site , but he can work in design office to guide on site related problems on reinf detailings/ method statements / others. He cannot act as signing Authority for PDC ,PD.


Every experience is valuable , but current draft Code discussion is related to design work, and hence the above statements .



alpa_sheth wrote:
Dear Er. Vikram Jeet and Er. Vadalkar,

I'm not sure if having a Degree which is 10 years or 15 years old qualifies us to be Structural Engineers. When we say 5 or 10 years experience, how are we measuring that experience? I could have 10 years experience on site and now switch to Structural Design- does it qualify me  to straight away design a large structure?

I therefore believe a more nuanced system of licensing is required where the credentials are carefully checked, the design experience under a senior structural designer is verified and some form of competency test- be it a  viva or preferably  a written test is conducted for younger designers. There could be a grandfather clause for persons with 20+ years experience.


best regards,
Alpa

vikram.jeet wrote:
Q & E for Designers / Consultants :

As said in some previous posting regarding Liscencing of Consultants , 5 categories of Consultants have been identified as Class A, B, C, D , And Spl Class.

In my humble opinion  following needs to be fixed :
For PDC
Class A -  Btech with minimum 20years  Or Mtech with minimum 15years
Class B - Btech with minimum  15 years  Or  Mtech with minimum 10 years
Class C - Btech with minimum  10 years  or Mtech with minimum  7 yrs
Class D -  Btech with 7 yrs  or Mtech with 5 yrs Or  Retired Str Expert  Btech  with no office/ staff i.e One man office consultant ,                      
  
Spl Class Consultants - Professor s , Acamecians , Researchers Generally not engaged in Prime design work , only act as second opinion / PC on selected works

The above experience is for Design signing Authority
He can have Design ers of varying experience in his organization


FOR PC
The experience shall be  = ( Above nos of yrs +5 yrs ) , Qualifications same as above
Idea is that a senior expert acting as Design Reviewer must be more experienced
The above exp is for proof check signing Engineer , he can have ers of varying exp in his office

Spl Class Consultants - Professors , Academia,  Researchers as PC for some selected works of their specialisation or can also give opinions on certain tricky issues where conflict in opinions of PDC & PC
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vikram.jeet
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Need for Classification of Consultants :

For a Consultancy assignment thru open tendering ,   Consultant of A category  may quote higher price vs others in lower categories , a one man show Consultant may quote even 1/3 rd or one fourth.
Credentials , Ability and Capabilities are generally not seen in Consultancy work  tendering unless work is of very high value  I e to say no pre-qualification process for Consultants is carried out as it's done for Contractors in form of Pre-qualification  , Technical Bid , and lastly Price Bid .

If Category of Consultant quoting for  a work  is ready available,   owner will be in a position to  compare  the price Bid s.
Also depending on  structural design work , quotes may be called from certain categories only.

This viewpoint may be given thought , to avoid Consultancy works going  into wrong hands.
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vikram.jeet
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other advantage of Classification::

Depending upon nature of design work  , consultant able to handle the str work can be easily recognized in terms over category as PDC / PC

Class A
All Bridges , Flyovers , Tall buildings above 20 storey  etc
Special Structures , Dams , heavy industries like cement steel and power plants etc, Precast  works , PEB
( depending on expertise field of  A class Consultant))


Class B
Rcc and PSC Bridges / flyovers upto 30m span ,  Buildings below 20 storeys ,Assembly Buildings ,  Water and sewage treatment works ,  Medium and small industrial buildings , OH Tanks,  ug reservoirs , etc,  
Precast works , PEB
( depending on field of expertise)

Class C
Small Bridges and Culverts,  Buildings upto 10 stories , Small industry, Sheds  buildings , school buildings ( 4 storied),  etc low cost housing , Low budget works , PEB

CLASS D
Buildings upto two stories,  Sheds type works , Boundary walls   septic tanks ,etc

Spl Class- Academia  Can act as Reviewer o their field of specialization

It may be noted that higher class Consultant can work / quote for lower class works   but not Vice versa.


Last edited by vikram.jeet on Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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