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Experience of PDC and PC
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vikram.jeet
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peer review  :

This can not be treated as proof checking . Just a broad review on design philosophy may not fulfill the requirements of second check on design/ drgs .
There is no indepth involvement / association with design work.  It is just like a commentators role without any responsibility.  Hence ,the peer review may not be categorised as PC  and role of full fledged Reviewer I.e PC needs to be retained.

Peer review  needs to be treated as  further additional to (PDC + PC)  arrangement , if owner / Govt decide to seek  on highly specialized structural works.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:04 am    Post subject: Experience of PDC and PC Reply with quote

It should not to be experience only. As ISE, UK etc does, there should be testing authority. One should appear for the test, does it, convince the testing authority, clear their doubt, before awarding professional structural engineer certificate.

Government should formulate an authority, methodology for it….


Er Bijoy

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Dharmendu007
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:23 am    Post subject: Experience of PDC and PC Reply with quote

Dear and Respected All,
I totally agree with what Alpa Ma'am said in the trailing mail. We may in this regard follow what other countries are doing. The Professional Engineer system followed by many countries should be perfect for the problem of setting and maintaining qualification criteria for licensed engineers. We already have a few systems in place, though not widely followed, the Professional Engineer or International Professional Engineer licence by Institute of Engineers India or any other similar body is just in line with the requirement.
  • The Int PE entitlement is provided after the candidate passes the INTERNATIONAL PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS ASSESSMENT EXAMINATION which includes design, construction, legal, environmental aspect etc.

  • Once certified he/she needs to maintain Continuous Professional Development (CPD) to renew his/her at a certain interval.
So, the system is pretty much in line with the requirement and also with what other countries are doing in an already tested environment. So, without reinventing the wheel, our own system can be adopted with a few modifications if necessary, maybe in the syllabus etc. Institute of Engineers India or Indian Association of Structural Engineers or any other institute can be consulted. Certainly the assessment system and maintaining the CPD is the very backbone of the process.



Regards,
Dharmendu Mandal

Contact No.: +91-9874156418

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On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 9:15 AM alpa_sheth <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:

Quote:
           Dear Er. Vikram Jeet and Er. Vadalkar,

I'm not sure if having a Degree which is 10 years or 15 years old qualifies us to be Structural Engineers. When we say 5 or 10 years experience, how are we measuring that experience? I could have 10 years experience on site and now switch to Structural Design- does it qualify me to straight away design a large structure?

I therefore believe a more nuanced system of licensing is required where the credentials are carefully checked, the design experience under a senior structural designer is verified and some form of competency test- be it a viva or preferably a written test is conducted for younger designers. There could be a grandfather clause for persons with 20+ years experience.


best regards,
Alpa

      vikram.jeet wrote:                Q & E for Designers / Consultants :

As said in some previous posting regarding Liscencing of Consultants , 5 categories of Consultants have been identified as Class A, B, C, D , And Spl Class.

In my humble opinion following needs to be fixed :
For PDC
Class A - Btech with minimum 20years Or Mtech with minimum 15years
Class B - Btech with minimum 15 years Or Mtech with minimum 10 years
Class C - Btech with minimum 10 years or Mtech with minimum 7 yrs
Class D - Btech with 7 yrs or Mtech with 5 yrs Or Retired Str Expert Btech with no office/ staff i.e One man office consultant ,                    

Spl Class Consultants - Professor s , Acamecians , Researchers Generally not engaged in Prime design work , only act as second opinion / PC on selected works

The above experience is for Design signing Authority
He can have Design ers of varying experience in his organization


FOR PC
The experience shall be = ( Above nos of yrs +5 yrs ) , Qualifications same as above
Idea is that a senior expert acting as Design Reviewer must be more experienced
The above exp is for proof check signing Engineer , he can have ers of varying exp in his office

Spl Class Consultants - Professors , Academia, Researchers as PC for some selected works of their specialisation or can also give opinions on certain tricky issues where conflict in opinions of PDC & PC     
     



     



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CH. VIDYASAGAR
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:45 am    Post subject: Experience of PDC and PC Reply with quote

In my opinion, Degree(s)  alone does not qualify to be structural engineer,   there should be  proper qualification test ... Usage of engineering softwares could be one of the criteria to provide  economical solutions...



On Wed, 31 Aug 2022, 09:18 alpa_sheth, <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:

Quote:
           Dear Er. Vikram Jeet and Er. Vadalkar,

I'm not sure if having a Degree which is 10 years or 15 years old qualifies us to be Structural Engineers. When we say 5 or 10 years experience, how are we measuring that experience? I could have 10 years experience on site and now switch to Structural Design- does it qualify me to straight away design a large structure?

I therefore believe a more nuanced system of licensing is required where the credentials are carefully checked, the design experience under a senior structural designer is verified and some form of competency test- be it a viva or preferably a written test is conducted for younger designers. There could be a grandfather clause for persons with 20+ years experience.


best regards,
Alpa

      vikram.jeet wrote:                Q & E for Designers / Consultants :

As said in some previous posting regarding Liscencing of Consultants , 5 categories of Consultants have been identified as Class A, B, C, D , And Spl Class.

In my humble opinion following needs to be fixed :
For PDC
Class A - Btech with minimum 20years Or Mtech with minimum 15years
Class B - Btech with minimum 15 years Or Mtech with minimum 10 years
Class C - Btech with minimum 10 years or Mtech with minimum 7 yrs
Class D - Btech with 7 yrs or Mtech with 5 yrs Or Retired Str Expert Btech with no office/ staff i.e One man office consultant ,                    

Spl Class Consultants - Professor s , Acamecians , Researchers Generally not engaged in Prime design work , only act as second opinion / PC on selected works

The above experience is for Design signing Authority
He can have Design ers of varying experience in his organization


FOR PC
The experience shall be = ( Above nos of yrs +5 yrs ) , Qualifications same as above
Idea is that a senior expert acting as Design Reviewer must be more experienced
The above exp is for proof check signing Engineer , he can have ers of varying exp in his office

Spl Class Consultants - Professors , Academia, Researchers as PC for some selected works of their specialisation or can also give opinions on certain tricky issues where conflict in opinions of PDC & PC     
     



     


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vikram.jeet
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2022 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very nicely said by Sri Solanki.

Qualifications always broadens the thinking domain and Mtech , PhD  structures  generally lead the structures design Consultancy firms.

But in India , with opening of computer /IT sectors providing hefty packages even to freshers , Students are not opting to sectors having Pilgrim 's progress in terms of remuneration s  and Civil engg , especially str engg is worst affected. There is going to be shortage of quality str ers in a decade or so. Hence putting embargo on design Qualifications may create further drought of Structural engineers.

As everyone who is engaged in str work know , how much painstaking  , responsible job they are dealing with demanding time lines. And Engineers of structures gain maturity in profession after working for a nos yrs under some sincere mentors / Consultancy .

Therefore Minimum Qualifications  of Btech with higher design exp   and Mtech with less exp is generally fit in present scenario and may be retained  in this Code.

Yesteryear designers were  mostly Btech , spending whole career in design  as in our times very few used to pursue  Mtech . All Consultancy firms like  Gammons / GILCON , STUP , MRC , TCPL , etc were recruiting Btech as designers.  But higher qualification is always an added asset .

Firms always have a mix of Qualifications and experience , PhD  , Mtech , Btech and even BE thru AMIE  for design work , Diploma holders for  drafting,  quantity estimation ..

Since Mtech engineers are also in firm , there seems no issue regarding FEM , Str dynamics and other advanced workings . With softwares availability Btech ers are also competent to carry advanced analyses after experience.


Hope it may help



bhsolanki wrote:
I agree with all members who focused on this qualification criteria, I have below points & my opinion to share about it

A. Why there should be minimum Educational qualification of Masters Degree in Structural Engineering to be either Designer(PDC) or Checker (PC) ?

Opinion: At B.E Level students do not have FEM in their syllabus, not learning Response Spectrum Method, Time History Method (Which is essential for any Machine Foundation design when Frequency domain analysis is required & less used in Seismic Analysis of Buildings), Advance RCC, Theory of Plate & Shell etc are not aware by a Bachelor degree holder.

In fact in Gujarat Technological University right now, Major Structural Engineering related fundamental subjects are now elective (Refer: https://www.gtu.ac.in/Syllabus/Syllabus.aspx) like Structural Analysis-II, Earthquake Engineering, Design of Reinforced Concrete Structures, Prestressed Concrete Structures etc.

How a Bachelor Degree holder can understand concepts and its application which he never taught, Someone may argue that It can be self learn with experience, True ! but that ratio is very low in Indian scenario. And if everyone is llowed to be designer & Checker with only Bachelor Degree with experience than there will not be any motivation for any candidate to pursue Master degree.

Professionally such policy in IS code will de-valuate the Master degree, Why one should not start practicing after B.E and after experience it will be treated same as Master degree holder.

Look at to the Medical practitioner, A Gynecologist is only allowed to do cesarean operation, only Eye specialist is allowed do surgery for eye, only ENT Surgeon is allowed to do related surgery and so On ! Does it mean Assistant Doctor to that specialist at every operation present and who has seen lots of operation does not have confidence and knowledge to do that operation ! Of-course No it can be done, but Law & regulations does not allow it.

Same way In Architecture field also, Architects well preserved their domain of professional work by making council of architecture,and now in majority of government/semi government tenders are compulsory put conditions architect who is registered with COA, and COA only allows to register who has at least B.Arch Degree.

I never understand, if civil engineering has bigger domain, and it can do all what an architect can do, more to that it can do supervision and designs also, than Why Civil Engineers are not allowed to be in role of Architect ! Just because Architects made COA and preserve there domain by not sharing their professional work.

Similarly I think a person with minimum Masters degree in educational qualification and with relevant experience should only allowed to be designer and checker. By this means A Structural Engineer in true sense will be recognized professionally and only a Structural Engineer will be allowed to do their domain work.


Here in Gujarat GCPCE authority (https://gcpce.gujarat.gov.in/) has made same mistake by allowing Diploma & Bachelor degree holder to be designer & allowing them to appear in exam for engineer license, which In my opinion not fair, I know lots of Diploma & Degree holders who don't even know the IS 13920 Standard how they will going to use software who uses this IS code & Its results with-its importance in seismic prone zones.

B. What should be Criteria ?

1. Class-4 License for 5m or less for Buildings OR 200sqmt or less carpet area : M.E/M.Tech in Structural Engineering with 1 Year Experience and Min. 5 Buildings Design which is proof checked.

2. Class-3 License for 15m or less for Buildings OR 500sqmt or less carpet area : M.E/M.Tech in Structural Engineering with 2 Year Experience and Min. 5 Buildings Design which is proof checked.

3. Class-2 License for 30m or less for Buildings OR 2500 to 3000 sqmt or less carpet area : M.E/M.Tech in Structural Engineering with 6 Year Experience and Min. 3 Buildings Design which is proof checked.

4. Class-1 License for 60m to 80m Tall with No Criteria in Carper Area: M.E/M.Tech in Structural Engineering with 10 Year Experience and Min. 3 Buildings Design which is proof checked.

5. Special Class-A: Minimum One Building 80m or more Tall designed: M.E/M.Tech in Structural Engineering with 15 Year Experience and Min. 1 Buildings Design which is proof checked.

6. Special Class-B: This special class should have categories of each special type of structure like Liquid Retaining Structure design, Bridges (Steel,RCC,PT), Transmission & Mast Towers, Hydraulic Structures, Industrial Roof Sheds (PEB, Truss & Portal type etc), Oil & Gas Equipment Support Structures design & Lifting analysis related experience, Off shore Structures, Buried Pipeline Structures.

Each structure may be classified with a tag and license holder can expand as per their experience.

C. To prevent monopoly: Those who holds license must issue experience to minimum 2 to 8 new learners per year to renew their license compulsory. This may be added into Local Authority CDCR and not in IS Code.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:58 am    Post subject: Experience of PDC and PC Reply with quote

Dear Sir,

1) Regarding experience clause : In this i feel level of understanding the subject is important along with theory and practical knowledge.
This clause should not hinder engineers from changing their filed. Example from buildings to bridges, oil and gas, high rise buildings etc.

2) Responsibility of PDC,PMC : This clause says both are equally responsible. By this PDC can easily escape from his responsibility and put total load on PMC.
Another calause says that drawings only need to be submitted. Calculations, Analysis files not required. This will prolong approval process, since both PDC,PMC need to do total design.
Another clause says if PMC observes any discrepancy it is to be discussed with PDC. But when PDC is sharing only drawings without calculations how PMC will share its technology with PDC.

Regards,

P.V.Gavarraju.
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er_jna
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Experience of PDC and PC
A very nice analogy pointed out by 'bhsolanki' where the medical professional is only allowed to operated only if he/she has the required specialized degree.

There are 2 models being proposed by 'bhsolanki' and 'vikram.jeet'.
'bhsolanki' has an interesting proposal for the PDC to have experience of having his/her design(s) proof checked.
I like this suggestion - this can be used as a basis for saying that the design of the PDC has been validated.

'vikram.jeet' is proposing to have degree with design work experience (not years after degree).
The counting of actual design experience and not from the qualifying year is good, but how to establish it? It may be similar to endorsement from the supervisor (similar to that being currently employed by IEI for membership, and BMC for structural license).

'vikram.jeet' has also proposed another model considering the type/size of the structure.

Maintenance of Qualification
Is it sufficient to qualify as per the requirement, or does the PDC/PC need to be up to date with some form of continuing development?

'bijoyav' has suggested conducting tests at regular intervals.
This can be implemented.
Maybe as a formal interaction with the licensing authority (state or municipality), like an interview or presentation of the projects designed in the recent past.
Based on how it works, it may be extended into a test.

'Dharmendu007' has  pointed out that this model is already available with IEI under the International PE certification.
Does this have to be spelled out in this code?
Why not let the licensing authority take care of the validity of qualification?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2022 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

To extend the analogy of the medical professional,following a directive by the Medical Council of India a few years ago, all  state medical councils have  made it mandatory for doctors to a) renew their license and b) collecta minimum number of  credit points (say 30) to be eligible forrenewal of license. These have to be earned by attending workshops and seminarsas part of the continuing medical education (CME) program.
All  doctors  have to re-register -eventhose who have relocated to other states and foreign countries.<o:p></o:p>
On similar lines, I think for PDC and PC a licensing system should be introduced based on  some qualifying exam/test/viva  besides academic qualification and experience. Additionally  renewal of the license every 3-5 years (In Mumbai it is annually)  should be based on attending courses/seminars/conferences to stay updated.

regards,
Alpa

er_jna wrote:
Experience of PDC and PC
A very nice analogy pointed out by 'bhsolanki' where the medical professional is only allowed to operated only if he/she has the required specialized degree.

There are 2 models being proposed by 'bhsolanki' and 'vikram.jeet'.
'bhsolanki' has an interesting proposal for the PDC to have experience of having his/her design(s) proof checked.
I like this suggestion - this can be used as a basis for saying that the design of the PDC has been validated.

'vikram.jeet' is proposing to have degree with design work experience (not years after degree).
The counting of actual design experience and not from the qualifying year is good, but how to establish it? It may be similar to endorsement from the supervisor (similar to that being currently employed by IEI for membership, and BMC for structural license).

'vikram.jeet' has also proposed another model considering the type/size of the structure.

Maintenance of Qualification
Is it sufficient to qualify as per the requirement, or does the PDC/PC need to be up to date with some form of continuing development?

'bijoyav' has suggested conducting tests at regular intervals.
This can be implemented.
Maybe as a formal interaction with the licensing authority (state or municipality), like an interview or presentation of the projects designed in the recent past.
Based on how it works, it may be extended into a test.

'Dharmendu007' has  pointed out that this model is already available with IEI under the International PE certification.
Does this have to be spelled out in this code?
Why not let the licensing authority take care of the validity of qualification?
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VPandya
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2022 4:30 am    Post subject: USE OF PLATE FINITE ELEMENT IN STAAD OR ANY SOFTWARE LIKE ETABS . Reply with quote

Ers. Alpaji , Vikram Jeet and Er. Vadalkar,

On one project I was checking Design in India,  I came across a unique  problem  :

DESIGN ENGIEER  WAS  NOT TRAINED IN USING  " PLATE AND SHELL FINITE ELEMENTS " FOR COCRETE RAFT FOUNDATION . HE ONLY USED BEAM ELEMENTS ( ONE WAY ELEMENTS ) . I ENDED UP REDOING ENTIRE RAFT FOUNDATION USING STAAD  PLATE  AND SHELL ELEMENTS . HE TOLD ME THERE WAS NO IN HIS TEAM WHO CAN USE TWO WAY PLATE SHELL ELEMENTS .

This  type of ptroblems comes under the  title :

INEXPERIENCE OR INCOMPETENT ENGINEERS DOING THE BASIC DESIGN.

Something need to be done for such issues .

Regards.

Vasudeo Pandya  P.E.
Sructural Engineers  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
alpa_sheth wrote:
Dear Er. Vikram Jeet and Er. Vadalkar,

I'm not sure if having a Degree which is 10 years or 15 years old qualifies us to be Structural Engineers. When we say 5 or 10 years experience, how are we measuring that experience? I could have 10 years experience on site and now switch to Structural Design- does it qualify me  to straight away design a large structure?

I therefore believe a more nuanced system of licensing is required where the credentials are carefully checked, the design experience under a senior structural designer is verified and some form of competency test- be it a  viva or preferably  a written test is conducted for younger designers. There could be a grandfather clause for persons with 20+ years experience.


best regards,
Alpa

vikram.jeet wrote:
Q & E for Designers / Consultants :

As said in some previous posting regarding Liscencing of Consultants , 5 categories of Consultants have been identified as Class A, B, C, D , And Spl Class.

In my humble opinion  following needs to be fixed :
For PDC
Class A -  Btech with minimum 20years  Or Mtech with minimum 15years
Class B - Btech with minimum  15 years  Or  Mtech with minimum 10 years
Class C - Btech with minimum  10 years  or Mtech with minimum  7 yrs
Class D -  Btech with 7 yrs  or Mtech with 5 yrs Or  Retired Str Expert  Btech  with no office/ staff i.e One man office consultant ,                      
  
Spl Class Consultants - Professor s , Acamecians , Researchers Generally not engaged in Prime design work , only act as second opinion / PC on selected works

The above experience is for Design signing Authority
He can have Design ers of varying experience in his organization


FOR PC
The experience shall be  = ( Above nos of yrs +5 yrs ) , Qualifications same as above
Idea is that a senior expert acting as Design Reviewer must be more experienced
The above exp is for proof check signing Engineer , he can have ers of varying exp in his office

Spl Class Consultants - Professors , Academia,  Researchers as PC for some selected works of their specialisation or can also give opinions on certain tricky issues where conflict in opinions of PDC & PC


Last edited by VPandya on Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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vikram.jeet
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2022 6:21 am    Post subject: Re: USE OF PLATE FINITE ELEMENT IN STAAD OR ANY SOFTWARE LIKE ETABS . Reply with quote

Definitely, I think the need of present times is to have the team Leader in charge  to be Mtech as  PDC & PC as echoed by  eminent members. But he can have designers with Btech to support . As  already stated in previous post on this topic , there is  going to be drought in field of Structural engg. due to many fast paying fields  .I have seen Mtech strs , shifting to IT sectors .

Still in India , so far , B tech Engineers with experience have run the show successfully  and with softwares , problems of advanced analyses is never a problem , but yes an engineer engaged in design must  acknowledge the need for  advanced working try to seek  it  during practical designing in design office .





VPandya wrote:
Ers. Alpa , Vikram Jeet and Er. Vadalkar,

On one project I was checking Design in India,  I came across a unique  problem  :

DESIGN ENGIEER  WAS  NOT TRAINED IN USING  " PLATE AND SHELL FINITE ELEMENTS " FOR COCRETE RAFT FOUNDATION . HE ONLY USED BEAM ELEMENTS ( ONE WAY ELEMENTS ) . I ENDED UP REDOING ENTIRE RAFT FOUNDATION USING STAAD  PLATE  AND SHELL ELEMENTS . HE TOLD ME THERE WAS NO IN HIS TEAM WHO CAN USE TWO WAY PLATE SHELL ELEMENTS .

This  type of ptroblems comes under the  title :

INEXPERIENCE OR INCOMPETENT ENGINEERS DOING THE BASIC DESIGN.

Something need to be done for such issues .

Regards.

Vasudeo Pandya  P.E.
Sructural Engineers  

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
alpa_sheth wrote:
Dear Er. Vikram Jeet and Er. Vadalkar,

I'm not sure if having a Degree which is 10 years or 15 years old qualifies us to be Structural Engineers. When we say 5 or 10 years experience, how are we measuring that experience? I could have 10 years experience on site and now switch to Structural Design- does it qualify me  to straight away design a large structure?

I therefore believe a more nuanced system of licensing is required where the credentials are carefully checked, the design experience under a senior structural designer is verified and some form of competency test- be it a  viva or preferably  a written test is conducted for younger designers. There could be a grandfather clause for persons with 20+ years experience.


best regards,
Alpa

vikram.jeet wrote:
Q & E for Designers / Consultants :

As said in some previous posting regarding Liscencing of Consultants , 5 categories of Consultants have been identified as Class A, B, C, D , And Spl Class.

In my humble opinion  following needs to be fixed :
For PDC
Class A -  Btech with minimum 20years  Or Mtech with minimum 15years
Class B - Btech with minimum  15 years  Or  Mtech with minimum 10 years
Class C - Btech with minimum  10 years  or Mtech with minimum  7 yrs
Class D -  Btech with 7 yrs  or Mtech with 5 yrs Or  Retired Str Expert  Btech  with no office/ staff i.e One man office consultant ,                      
  
Spl Class Consultants - Professor s , Acamecians , Researchers Generally not engaged in Prime design work , only act as second opinion / PC on selected works

The above experience is for Design signing Authority
He can have Design ers of varying experience in his organization


FOR PC
The experience shall be  = ( Above nos of yrs +5 yrs ) , Qualifications same as above
Idea is that a senior expert acting as Design Reviewer must be more experienced
The above exp is for proof check signing Engineer , he can have ers of varying exp in his office

Spl Class Consultants - Professors , Academia,  Researchers as PC for some selected works of their specialisation or can also give opinions on certain tricky issues where conflict in opinions of PDC & PC
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