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prof.arc
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 703

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:28 am    Post subject: on the Building Failure Reply with quote

We all get very angry and feel helpless but have no solution to tackle the mess perpetuated by builder/architect/engineer/contractor/approving BABUS

This problem of helplessness of the engineer who is squeezed in between on both sides is fortunately confined to residential buildings.
The corrupt system will not encourage a honest, hard working structural engineer. This is the fact of life in our present society
For Normal Loads, once the shuttering is removed and the building still stands, the fear of failure is remote
only occasional loads, like earthquake, if it ever occurs will expose the true weakness of the building


By enforceable law, only if INSURANCE CAN BE PROVIDED, any alteration should be permitted.
Insurers would find a solution to either to cover or refuse PRE-EXISTING CONDITION
or engineers should get ANTICIPATORY BAIL in the form of legal safeguard by stating their liability


Fortunately, statistically speaking the number of failures of residential buildings is very low - our roads are so bad compared to residential buildings


Industrial Structures have nearly escaped this Mafia


ARC 

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 10:38 PM, Hemalmodi <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Everyone here agrees that the construction industry needs a reform and despite the events and resistance that we have recently seen in Tunisia & Egypt, I am yet to see similar protest or even opinion articles in major newspapers, magazines, blogs or any news media for that matter. Do we have a short term memory as a nation or is there any other reason why there is an outcry and flurry of activity after any such event that eventually dies out without any major revision? 
If this is to continue, then I feel that it is a sure sign that the history will repeat itself and we or our next generation will have to be prepared to face the consequences.
Note to admin: Please move this to "general discussion", so people are not bombarded with emails whenever there is a post on this topic.
     


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Dr. N. Subramanian
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:22 am    Post subject: Re: on the Building Failure Reply with quote

Dear Prof. ARC,

I agree with you totally. But you wrote "
Industrial Structures have nearly escaped this Mafia". During cyclones many roofs of the industrial buildings fail or even 'fly'. It is because (1) the wind loads specified in IS 875 is less than the wind speed in coastal zones, (2) Many engineers do not care to consider the extra load specified by the code near the boundaries of the buildings, which should be considered while selecting the fastenings.

Best Regards
Subramanian
prof.arc wrote:
We all get very angry and feel helpless but have no solution to tackle the mess perpetuated by builder/architect/engineer/contractor/approving BABUS

This problem of helplessness of the engineer who is squeezed in between on both sides is fortunately confined to residential buildings.
The corrupt system will not encourage a honest, hard working structural engineer. This is the fact of life in our present society
For Normal Loads, once the shuttering is removed and the building still stands, the fear of failure is remote
only occasional loads, like earthquake, if it ever occurs will expose the true weakness of the building


By enforceable law, only if INSURANCE CAN BE PROVIDED, any alteration should be permitted.
Insurers would find a solution to either to cover or refuse PRE-EXISTING CONDITION
or engineers should get ANTICIPATORY BAIL in the form of legal safeguard by stating their liability


Fortunately, statistically speaking the number of failures of residential buildings is very low - our roads are so bad compared to residential buildings


Industrial Structures have nearly escaped this Mafia


ARC

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 10:38 PM, Hemalmodi <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
            Everyone here agrees that the construction industry needs a reform and despite the events and resistance that we have recently seen in Tunisia & Egypt, I am yet to see similar protest or even opinion articles in major newspapers, magazines, blogs or any news media for that matter. Do we have a short term memory as a nation or is there any other reason why there is an outcry and flurry of activity after any such event that eventually dies out without any major revision?
If this is to continue, then I feel that it is a sure sign that the history will repeat itself and we or our next generation will have to be prepared to face the consequences.
Note to admin: Please move this to "general discussion", so people are not bombarded with emails whenever there is a post on this topic.
     


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vikram.jeet
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 2212

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 5:13 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

With all the discussions taking place with some suggestions on forum , but  
there is no solution imminent except being emotional and poetic.  


Status of a SE- - - -it appears that it is difficult to touch the Cup
of a structural engineer ,there are all chances of burning the hands.  
The thoughts which are boiling in his cup also carries his tears ,it  
seems.

The profession of brilliants is a mere subordinate , and requires mercy
of others
The best efforts put in by him have been countered by negligence from
others  

A perverted thought just creeps in mind - - - - - a fantasy:

Let us all wind up to create scarcity and let them face the music.

When a vacuum like situation is created , they will have sleepless nights

They will realize the role played and responsibility shouldered by SE

Let them call expats to do their jobs at exorbitant price.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - for the sake of justice to an important ,though
neglected and beleaguered profession in India.


vikramjeet




We all get very angry and feel helpless but have no solution to tackle the mess perpetuated by builder/architect/engineer/contractor/approving BABUS  
Industrial Structures have nearly escaped this Mafia
ARC
-- ­­

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fugeeo
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:25 am    Post subject: on the Building Failure Reply with quote

As an outsider to India, I cherish time and time again to do more for India.  

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 11:06 PM, vikram.jeet <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           With all the discussions taking place with some suggestions on forum , but
there is no solution imminent except being emotional and poetic.  


Status of a SE- - - -it appears that it is difficult to touch the Cup
of a structural engineer ,there are all chances of burning the hands.
The thoughts which are boiling in his cup also carries his tears ,it
seems.

The profession of brilliants is a mere subordinate , and requires mercy
of others
The best efforts put in by him have been countered by negligence from
others

A perverted thought just creeps in mind - - - - - a fantasy:

Let us all wind up to create scarcity and let them face the music.

When a vacuum like situation is created , they will have sleepless nights

They will realize the role played and responsibility shouldered by SE

Let them call expats to do their jobs at exorbitant price.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - for the sake of justice to an important ,though
neglected and beleaguered profession in India.


vikramjeet




We all get very angry and feel helpless but have no solution to tackle the mess perpetuated by builder/architect/engineer/contractor/approving BABUS
Industrial Structures have nearly escaped this Mafia
ARC
-- ­­
     



     



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hameed mohamed younus
SEFI Member
SEFI Member


Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:26 am    Post subject: on the Building Failure Reply with quote

I am looking far s structural engineer to Hire for my company – we are the producer of AAC blocks and panels offering full mass villa solution, pre fabricated panels, litels and roof slab for fast erection
Any one like to join us in Saudi Arabia please contact me

Hameed
hameed@shar.com.sa (hameed@shar.com.sa)
Espac Building Material Co
00966 502884535


From: vikram.jeet [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 9:07 AM
To: announcement@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: on the Building Failure


With all the discussions taking place with some suggestions on forum , but
there is no solution imminent except being emotional and poetic.


Status of a SE- - - -it appears that it is difficult to touch the Cup
of a structural engineer ,there are all chances of burning the hands.
The thoughts which are boiling in his cup also carries his tears ,it
seems.

The profession of brilliants is a mere subordinate , and requires mercy
of others
The best efforts put in by him have been countered by negligence from
others

A perverted thought just creeps in mind - - - - - a fantasy:

Let us all wind up to create scarcity and let them face the music.

When a vacuum like situation is created , they will have sleepless nights

They will realize the role played and responsibility shouldered by SE

Let them call expats to do their jobs at exorbitant price.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - for the sake of justice to an important ,though
neglected and beleaguered profession in India.


vikramjeet




We all get very angry and feel helpless but have no solution to tackle the mess perpetuated by builder/architect/engineer/contractor/approving BABUS
Industrial Structures have nearly escaped this Mafia
ARC
-- ­­

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RKBhola
SEFI Member
SEFI Member


Joined: 05 Dec 2009
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:23 am    Post subject: on the Building Failure Reply with quote

Dear Brothers

Mr. Vikramjeet has struck at the crux of the matter. Unless the SE
fraternity is adequately compensated for our inputs, the profession
will not flourish,  and will not attract the exceptionally brilliant
talent that is required.

One way to ensure adequate compensation is for our organizations to
recommend a high Professional Fee level (say Rs.10 per sft for
residential multistory projects), so as to set a benchmark.
Thereafter, we should all strive to work as close to the recommended
fee as possible.

RK Bhola

On Wednesday, February 2, 2011, vikram.jeet <forum@sefindia.org> wrote:
Quote:





     

     With all the discussions taking place with some suggestions on forum , but
there is no solution imminent except being emotional and poetic.


Status of a SE- - - -it appears that it is difficult to touch the Cup
of a structural engineer ,there are all chances of burning the hands.
The thoughts which are boiling in his cup also carries his tears ,it
seems.

The profession of brilliants is a mere subordinate , and requires mercy
of others
The best efforts put in by him have been countered by negligence from
others

A perverted thought just creeps in mind - - - - - a fantasy:

Let us all wind up to create scarcity and let them face the music.

When a vacuum like situation is created , they will have sleepless nights

They will realize the role played and responsibility shouldered by SE

Let them call expats to do their jobs at exorbitant price.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - for the sake of justice to an important ,though
neglected and beleaguered profession in India.


vikramjeet




We all get very angry and feel helpless but have no solution to tackle the mess perpetuated by builder/architect/engineer/contractor/approving BABUS
Industrial Structures have nearly escaped this Mafia
ARC
-- ­­
     



     



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ibarua
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 1039

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:10 am    Post subject: on the Building Failure Reply with quote

2nd Feb 2011

Roofs of industrial buildings have been known to fly off during high winds, by reason of failure of the system bolting the CGI or AC sheets to the purlins. Very often, the holes in the sheets are punched and not drilled (as they should be), resulting in over-sized holes that allow the washer-nut combination to slip out. Also, many engineers fail to design the fasteners for local gusts as specified in the Codes.

Indrajit Barua.


On Wed, 02 Feb 2011 11:56:35 +0530 "drnsmani" <forum@sefindia.org> wrote
[quote]     Dear Prof. ARC,

I agree with you totally. But you wrote "
Industrial Structures have nearly escaped this Mafia". During cyclones many roofs of the industrial buildings fail or even 'fly'. It is because (1) the wind loads specified in IS 875 is less than the wind speed in coastal zones, (2) Many engineers do not care to consider the extra load specified by the code near the boundaries of the buildings, which should be considered while selecting the fastenings.

Best Regards
Subramanian
      prof.arc wrote:                We all get very angry and feel helpless but have no solution to tackle the mess perpetuated by builder/architect/engineer/contractor/approving BABUS

This problem of helplessness of the engineer who is squeezed in between on both sides is fortunately confined to residential buildings.
The corrupt system will not encourage a honest, hard working structural engineer. This is the fact of life in our present society
For Normal Loads, once the shuttering is removed and the building still stands, the fear of failure is remote
only occasional loads, like earthquake, if it ever occurs will expose the true weakness of the building


By enforceable law, only if INSURANCE CAN BE PROVIDED, any alteration should be permitted.
Insurers would find a solution to either to cover or refuse PRE-EXISTING CONDITION
or engineers should get ANTICIPATORY BAIL in the form of legal safeguard by stating their liability


Fortunately, statistically speaking the number of failures of residential buildings is very low - our roads are so bad compared to residential buildings


Industrial Structures have nearly escaped this Mafia


ARC

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 10:38 PM, Hemalmodi <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
      --auto removed--

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somasekhar
SEFI Regulars
SEFI Regulars


Joined: 25 Mar 2010
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:10 am    Post subject: on the Building Failure Reply with quote

Rightly said.

Just to protect the dignity of profession,i stopped signing the undertaking forms
to all builders on structural reports.

I just told them , If you follow the guidelines and the building norms then only
i will sign, if you violate govt will take penal action on me as per the guide lines.

slowly the clients stopped coming to me, i just thought that the construction activity
became slow, after few months i saw no of tall buildings coming up on the roads.
being a reputed man, i just enquired and came to know that , few great professors
are putting the signatures just for petty amounts.

civil engineering profession is ruled by draughtsmen &diploma holders in medium
towns and by architects in cities.

Those who settled in jobs other than consulting/structural engineers are just
watching the fun ( unemployed &inefficients graduates opt for consultancy
just for survival as they could not get govt.jobs, i heard from many deptt people
and teaching faculty).

ABOVE ALL MY FELLOW CONSULTANTS , REMEMBER WE ARE
PRACTISING A PROFESSION THAT HAS NO COUNCIL,
NO RECOGNITION/PROTECTION   FROM GOVT TILL INDEPENDENCE.
THOUGH WE ARE 10 FOLD IN NOS COMPARED TO ARCHITECTS WHO
WERE PROTECTED BY COA  AND ENJOYING ITS FRUITS.

WE FACE DISCRIMINATION EVERYDAY IN PROFESSION FROM OUTSIDE
AND INSIDE.

AND A FEW GREAT PEOPLE DEMAND WE SHOULD BE HANGED WHEN
A BUILDING COLLAPSE .

There is no point in crying and getting solace by fellow men.

We will flourish and lead a respected life only if the eminent people in
the profession take necessary steps to make changes in the legislation
or atleast confer the responsibility to the institution of engineers.

regards
  
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 11:36 AM, vikram.jeet <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           With all the discussions taking place with some suggestions on forum , but
there is no solution imminent except being emotional and poetic.


Status of a SE- - - -it appears that it is difficult to touch the Cup
of a structural engineer ,there are all chances of burning the hands.
The thoughts which are boiling in his cup also carries his tears ,it
seems.

The profession of brilliants is a mere subordinate , and requires mercy
of others
The best efforts put in by him have been countered by negligence from
others

A perverted thought just creeps in mind - - - - - a fantasy:

Let us all wind up to create scarcity and let them face the music.

When a vacuum like situation is created , they will have sleepless nights

They will realize the role played and responsibility shouldered by SE

Let them call expats to do their jobs at exorbitant price.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - for the sake of justice to an important ,though
neglected and beleaguered profession in India.


vikramjeet




We all get very angry and feel helpless but have no solution to tackle the mess perpetuated by builder/architect/engineer/contractor/approving BABUS
Industrial Structures have nearly escaped this Mafia
ARC
-- ­­
     



     



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nwalavalkar
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Joined: 18 Nov 2010
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Deepak Parekh of HDFC has raised this issue in different media many times. Construction / housing industry is mostly dominated by non qualified people. Further add to it few greedy elements are always there. Lack of honesty, integrity and accountability is making the matter worst.  Everyone looks construction industry as a business rather than profession. Even though this is a multi-billion dollar industry it is mostly unorganized.
I fully support Prof. ARC’s idea of introducing compulsory general insurance alterations, it should be introduced for new buildings / housing units also. It will help to introduce some accountability in this industry.
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pritmishra
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Joined: 22 Jul 2009
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:48 am    Post subject: on the Building Failure Reply with quote

Hello All.
 
Nice healthy discussion, but I doubt reaching up to some productive results this time also.
As an industry and as a country we have very poor memory. And one of my friend has mentioned correctly that we all structural engineers are fully loaded donkeys without money and some how we keep surviving.
 
To be very honest a structural designer designing a residential or commercial structure only is responsible for the life of not less than 100 people but when the person is paid his professional fees, the fees will be rounding up amount of the project.
Isn't it great???
 
And for that rounding up amount some extra ordinary unprofessional people are doing extra ordinary structures which survives for few days, some times for few months, some time for few years and at the end of the extra ordinary fortune of those extra ordinary unprofessional people all structural designers are being questioned and doubted about their ability.
 
I appreciate passions of our community including my self.
Regards

Pritesh Mishra




On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 12:41 AM, somasekhar <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
[quote]  Rightly said.

Just to protect the dignity of profession,i stopped signing the undertaking forms
to all builders on structural reports.

I just told them , If you follow the guidelines and the building norms then only
i will sign, if you violate govt will take penal action on me as per the guide lines.

slowly the clients stopped coming to me, i just thought that the construction activity
became slow, after few months i saw no of tall buildings coming up on the roads.
being a reputed man, i just enquired and came to know that , few great professors
are putting the signatures just for petty amounts.

civil engineering profession is ruled by draughtsmen &diploma holders in medium
towns and by architects in cities.

Those who settled in jobs other than consulting/structural engineers are just
watching the fun ( unemployed &inefficients graduates opt for consultancy
just for survival as they could not get govt.jobs, i heard from many deptt people
and teaching faculty).

ABOVE ALL MY FELLOW CONSULTANTS , REMEMBER WE ARE
PRACTISING A PROFESSION THAT HAS NO COUNCIL,
NO RECOGNITION/PROTECTION   FROM GOVT TILL INDEPENDENCE.
THOUGH WE ARE 10 FOLD IN NOS COMPARED TO ARCHITECTS WHO
WERE PROTECTED BY COA  AND ENJOYING ITS FRUITS.

WE FACE DISCRIMINATION EVERYDAY IN PROFESSION FROM OUTSIDE
AND INSIDE.

AND A FEW GREAT PEOPLE DEMAND WE SHOULD BE HANGED WHEN
A BUILDING COLLAPSE .

There is no point in crying and getting solace by fellow men.

We will flourish and lead a respected life only if the eminent people in
the profession take necessary steps to make changes in the legislation
or atleast confer the responsibility to the institution of engineers.

regards
  
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 11:36 AM, vikram.jeet forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
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